Hello all,
For those of you who have visited dVerse throughout the years you might remember the pubtalk. A place to go and talk poetry or other topic… maybe to improve our writing, to discuss new ideas etc. On these talks there will be no prompts but as it’s OLN next later this week, maybe this talk can inspire you.
For those of you who expected haibun monday and quadrille they will all be back. Let us see what the frequence will be.
So today’s topic is one of the scariest but also most useful there is. How to give (and receive) constructive feedback.
Criticism, like rain, should be gentle enough to nourish a man’s growth without destroying his roots.
Frank A. Clark
My own experience comes from courses I have taken in creative writing. Of course there are difference what you can say in a closed room than what you can say for all the world to read. It is not just sensitive to receive but also to give constructive feedback.
It takes time to give good feedback, so I don’t expect it to be part of what we normally do in the comment section in our poetry prompts. Sometimes the best thing is to send constructive feedback separately on an email.
I have a few rules for courteous constructive feedback I try to use when possible.
- Avoid to review a poem — of course it is always nice to hear how much a poem is loved or how good you think it is, but the purpose of feedback lies not in weather it is good or bad. It lies in how the poem can be improved. Feedback is from poet to poet.
- Avoid to be an editor — Editor works on a one to one communication and do suggest ways a poem can be changed. With constructive feedback you hint to the poet on ways the poem can be improved. As with every rule there are exceptions, and personally I do not mind feedback on spelling or grammar.
- Focus on content first — When you write about a poem try to tell the poet what you felt, what emotions and associations it evoke. To avoid that this feels like editing or reviewing, remember to phrase your feedback using first person. Start your sentences with I feel, or I interpret. Be specific and try to tell why you feel a certain way.
- Give feedback on form secondly — Many of us spend time using our poetic toolbox, such as rhymes or meter, assonance or consonance (even when it’s unintentional).
- Never review the reviewer — This applies to both the poet and other reviewers. To give feedback can be even more uncomfortable than writing the original text. You often give a piece of yourself, and your views are your own.
For poets who receive feedback, you do not necessary have to agree. We are all writers and have different styles
The best compliment a poet can give from a feedback is not just thanking for the feedback, but to actually rewrite the poem. Try to do that, and you will see a wonderful response.
- Have you ever been in a group where you have shared constructive feedback?
- What did it feel like? Did it change over time?>
- Did you ever set the rules beforehand? Were there any teachers/experts giving feedback?
- Have you ever rewritten a poem based on feedback?
- Can feedback be given on an open platform like dVerse?
Leave your comments below, and take part in the discussion.
dVerse 
Hello all… so we thought we should start with some pubtalk… I’m pouring the drinks tonight… your thoughts for a pint.
I have rewritten a poem before based on feedback but it was done in a private and constructive way. The rules and guidelines were set prior, and the one giving the feedback was thoughtful and took the time to rewrite my poem.
I believe in that it takes time and care to take and give feedback. It should be done in private as much as possible, and presumes a relationship based on trust. If I don’t know the person or poet, I would not give a feedback just like that. I can hurt someone’s feelings and that may have been not my intention at all.
Thanks for hosting this pubtalk Bjorn!
I know it does… and I sometimes feel that it’s harder to give good feedback than to receive it. Sometimes I think though that there is an element of constructive feedback in the reflections I get on my blog which helps me to improve.
Alas too many people think that constructive feedback means to be “honest” and brutal… but that’s not constructive at all…
I agree with that, Bjorn. It’s something that happens a lot on those on-line courses, where comments can be quite hurtful and where you find the regulars sometimes gang up on you.
I think that’s why it’s so important to set the rules… in the course I attended we were not allowed to say what we liked or disliked but focus on interpretation… in a way it’s more like analyzing the text than criticizing it.
I totally agree with that. But some people’s ideas of honest is the same as brutal. I once had Brian say that I shoed all and told nothing in a poem. It made me sit back and think about how I wrote. He was honest and I took it as honest. Someone else may take it as him being mean. But it is just being honest. Now brutal would have been if he had said, you write one cliche’ after another, lol.
Ha.. yes I think you need to learn to know your poets to give that kind of feedback…
I agree that it is *very* easy to unintentionally hurt someone’s feelings.
Yes it requires trust… the best environment for me has always been where everyone is on equal ground, rather than a teacher pupil relationship.
I agree Bjorn. Like shams and Rumi. “we must be clear at the start how this will go, friendship and brotherhood, or teacher and student. Not that last, I have no interest in that”
I agree with you. It does take time and care… and I’ll add that it also takes confidence. I’m not the most confident guy, but I give my best effort if I’m asked for a critique.
Good advice on feedback. As a former writing teacher (high school level) I find it is hard to turn the editor off. That said, sometimes I get excited about the bones of a poem and recognize ways in which the ideas can be expressed more succinctly. What I’m gathering here is that we want to encourage the writer by reflecting back what we experienced in reading his/her work. Is that correct?
Exactly and yes, there are ways of pointing out details, and tell the poets what we feel… and that could be more helpful than the editing mode you do as a teacher…
Personally, I crave a circle where I can gain feedback, as I do not have one face-to-face. I have taken writing courses and received advice that has helped improve my writing, but I find on my own, I fear becoming stagnant.
I have been in those courses as well.. and that’s excellent… to receive good feedback, to discuss the meaning… to spot the cliches we might be using… all that helps us writers… but to have the whole world eavesdropping doesn’t work either…
Ah, good point.
I have a local workshop group of poets. We have met every 2 weeks for 5 years. When I take a poem to this group, I’ve gone as far on it as I can, and I treat it as a product, not my baby. Any help I get at that point is to make the poem better. I can take or leave the criticism, but if 2 or more have issue with something, I always find a way to incorporate the suggestions. I always learn something at every meeting to help my poetry. I would encourage everyone to either join or start a group like this where you can submit to the group and receive feedback.
That’s what I’m looking for!
When I moved to my current town, I joined the large group of writers here that meet once a month at the library. They had offshoot critique groups, but no poets group. I started asking around, and those people asked around, and we got 7 people who wanted to participate. As time went on, one member left because she admitted she was too thin-skinned and saw her poetry as her “babies.” But the rest of us consider the group invaluable, can laugh at our “oops, we did it again” kinds of mistakes, and rearrange our schedules so we never miss a session unless we’re sick or out of town. It’s been one of the most valuable experiences I’ve ever had as a writer.
Maybe I’ll have to promote something
Go for it. You’ll meet some great people!
At one point there have been discussions of forming a king of “closed group” where mutual trust can be formed so we can give each other constructive feedback.
I would like that.
Sounds interesting…
How big can such a closed group be? … in courses I have never experienced more than 8 authors in such a group.
I have been in groups of up to and no more than 20.
I think 20 can be too many… at least if everyone should give each other feedback….
of course in a group of 20, you alre always going to have the silent ones. But I have been in groups of 20, face to face and not internet. it worked fine. I think 12 would be a good number online.
Maybe we should have them on Skype… almost as good as face to face
I don’t do Skype
We can probably create a bridge where you can use a normal phone 🙂
That would be cool. My computer is so outdated, I doubt it would even work and…I have not sound on it. On purpose. I hate the prompts that totally rely on a music video, lol.
Ha… that’s cool… but you can use skype and similar on your smartphone…
In the case of many people, there can be multiple groups and there can also be an interchange of members between groups from time to time perhaps.
Not so sure about Skype because of the different time zones + it may not be suitable for everyone to participate in a face to face. That’s my social anxiety speaking. Ha! XD
Sounds good to me.
i’d be game. perhaps several smaller circles? i don’t know how many of us there are…
When we wrote the anthology there were more than 100 poets…
That would be really good — it can be a wonderful avenue for everyone involved to garner something constructive from the feedbacks. Reviewing a poem, in general, is not the best way to go, but that is what we end up doing sometimes while commenting during the prompts.
So, I’d be really interested in a group like that.
Comments are usually quite polite and complimentary. So I am open to helpful criticism from time to time. Perhaps there’s a way to indicate on our blog whether we would accept it or not?
We did that on another forum… just added a symbol… and you were only allowed to give such feedback if you were willing to receive it back 🙂 It does work for a while, but there are limitations how much you can do… it takes longer than to just reflect on a poem…
Good evening, morning or afternoon everyone – I sound like Truman from The Truman Show! I’m so pleased that I haven’t missed the pub talk. I have rewritten poems based on feedback but only as part of on-line courses with The Poetry School and their on-line forum. I hope that I follow the rules you have given us, Bjorn, although I know I have commented on misspellings, grammar and punctuation before but not so much theses days – that comes from being a high school teacher, similar to V.J.
Ha.. as I said I’m very happy for those comments… not really counting those as editing…
The feedback on how to effectively give constructive criticism will all be in the comments, and then as said, if the poet publishes a revised version. For instance, if someone is bold enough to give good but gentle critique of a particular piece, AND THE POET IS RECEPTIVE, then this out in the open interaction will encourage other readers to give more. Over time we will see who is more excited about these kind of more specific reviews and suggestions to improve. I’m all for good, nuanced suggestions from other poets. In person is best to avoid sensitivities and subtle miscommunications, but we must work with what we’ve got. I’m grateful for all of you.
I remember when I got feedback on a piece of flashfiction I had written… and I added a new version on the same blogpost… the interaction was fascinating and strangely enough ended up in some being in favor of the original version and other preferring the rewritten one… but it was all done in a very friendly and courteous manner.
Final say is yours, though I do know the struggle of putting cap on pen and saying, “There. Done.” Glad your piece generated so much feedback and interaction. I’m now trying to think if I ever received that kind of critique on WordPress, and in almost three years here, I remember maybe two or three times. Just last week Beverly hinted at a hyphen drop, and that’s the only one I can think of off the top of my head. I welcome it, though I can’t speak for others. Good discussion questions!
Need it be said to pour me something dark and strong?
Dark it is… should it be bitter as well ?
Ha, no. Smooth.
I wouldn’t want someone to rewrite my poetry, but I do like hearing what others get out of a poem. If my intent or meaning is misunderstood or poorly communicated, I would want that feedback, and would quite possibly rework the poem. I have done so in the past. I am also pretty clueless about poetic forms and whatnot, so I’ve learned a lot here at the pub. I try to comment when I can on others’ poetry, but I’m not really qualified to offer feedback on structure, etc. Sometimes it’s good to simply know you’ve been read, though.
I agree Maggie, and writing something about how you have understood the poem is often the best way to give a feedback… (hey sometimes I can be quite obscure)… some poets are better in finding what’s good in the form than content.. that’s why we can never rely on simply one input
I agree that rewriting the poem should not be part of a critique. One might employ an editor for that and credit the editor in the acknowledgment section of the book.
Rewriting is exactly what you said…editing… we should be given feedback to do our own editing.
When I published my first poetry book, I sent the manuscript out to eight people I trusted, all with different backgrounds, and asked for feedback. Several poems were revised as a result. I have also worked with several in-person critique groups or partners on other writing, such as my memoir. I have finally concluded that I need a professional to provide feedback on that and have found one who offers the perfect balance of encouragement (when something is written well) and constructive critique (when something could be written better). I think online it would be very difficult to offer or receive critique on poetry because it is much more subjective than some other forms of writing.
I think you are right… though the small reflections I’ve been given has helped me a lot. When we wrote a collection of short stories we decided to do group editing… we gave each other feedback in smaller groups… rewrote and repeated… then in the end a few fixed the grammar and spelling. With poetry I think it’s both harder and easier… after all we all know it will be subjective..
Like emails and text messages, sometimes the tone or intent of the message is misunderstood. I would expect some of that could happen here, but I am hungry for constructive criticism and approve whatever you on the team decide to do. My vote is yes,
let’s try it…knowing it’s not the same as in person.
I was on Eratosphere about a decade ago which is site that focused mainly on formal poetry and behind a password, that is, it was not public. Posting poems there was not considered “publication” as it is on our blogs which are open to the public. One concern people had was they did not want someone critiquing their poem to give them any suggestion on what the specific words should be. They would then have to credit that person if they used those specific words. I think that is a legitimate point.
For me the critique that works best is the one where the reader tells me how they feel… how they imagine a character in my story or poem for instance… the one that works least well is when they are trying to change the words…. except if it means pointing out cliches… for example in my last course the poet said I should avoid to describe a wine by using the word ruby…
It is good to have someone point out cliches. They are easy to miss on one’s own because they are so obvious like a typo one keeps making.
Indeed they are, but sometimes they can be a bit more sensitive than typos I have found…
Hi all. I used to be part of an online “critique” group and liked it. We were honest with each other. yes some people get their feelings hurt because our poems are our children. One of the most constructive things I did was to go back and forth with Brian Miller about critique. He is the best! The thing is is to accept that it isn’t personal, that it is for your own good and the good of the poem, and to learn from it. One may not change their poem but will take away from the critique. I learned to develop a thick skin and to be realistic about critiquing and being critiqued. If one isn’t interested in improving oneself, then by all means, don’t sign on for critiguing. I often will critique my own poem saying I think it is weak, or the form kind of wobbles, etc. While it is good to know one has been read, it would also be good to know that the person really read it. that they felt something, that they engaged with the poem. It is okay to expect those sweet sentiments and to write according to get the sentiments. It is another thing to really hear what someone is saying without saying the person is “mean”. Brian really cut to the core of my poetry. I miss his honesty.
We all miss Brian… he could catch it quickly and cut to the core as you say. We should all try to learn to give feedback that tells us how it touches us… to me praise is nice… but at one point it can feel like drinking to much soda… just too sweet.
Yeppers. ❤ ❤ haha
what would brian say?
I agree about it being too sweet sometimes.
I had a similar experience with Brian — it was very helpful since I recognized certain facets of my writing style which I may have taken very long to even acknowledge otherwise. It helped me take a step towards the right direction. Feedbacks like that are always appreciated.
Hello poets…I am home with a cold. Bjorn, I would love a Hot Toddy….or anything similar.
Critique can be a very sensitive experience, more for some than others. I like the idea of doing it by email if the poet welcomes the idea. For me, personally, there are those poems that I will not tamper with again, once they are complete in my eyes. I am more open during the writing process, for opinions and directions.
It would also be great to offer a list of online resources for improving our poetry.
A Toddy coming up… laced with honey.
Sometimes I have received correction for spelling errors by email, but frankly they can be out in the open for everyone I feel… Actually the best way to receive feedback is face to face… if we decide to do it online I would prefere a skype group call actually.
Good afternoon all- I am new to this world of blogging and putting my words out there. That said, I do enjoy getting feedback, because I am in a high learning mode. Regarding giving feedback to others, I sometimes hesitate because I feel you are all so much more experienced in this area, which is why I may sometimes say beautiful write or something else complimentary. I am still learning how to interpret the words from my own perspective. I love sharing here on d’Verse because when someone does take the time to respond, it is thought out and I have appreciated their insight. Recently, I had my first experience with an editor and it was a positive one overall. Perhaps because I am learning, I do not wear my ‘heart on my sleeve’ as it were. d’Verse has been great place for learning about various forms and for getting feedback. Bravo to you all!
I think this mirrors the experience for many of us… not too long ago I started writing myself… and I actually think you point out something important, we might be too careful sometimes… but to reflect on a poem can never be wrong…
That’s so true Bjorn. I love how words can be interpreted by the reader. When I get feedback that surprises me, I’m thinking wow- that’s interesting. I think each persons life experiences shape their perceptions.
That’s exactly so… one of the tips I got was that feedback should have the perspective of a writer not a reader, but a readers comment is very helpful too.
I have only ever had individual poems published. I’d never even consider attempting a book. I have never participated in workshops and I wouldn’t even if I was considering taking poetry to a professional level. There are too many limitations to the friendly critique system, honesty being one of the. Nobody wants to offend anyone, everyone wants to say nice things . Poetry is highly subjective and personal so difficult to criticise unless the reviewer is at least as skilled as the poet. There are many poets on dverse I rarely leave a comment with because I don’t feel I’ve understood the poem sufficiently to say anything at all about it. With formal poetry, if the poet can’t hear that the line doesn’t scan or their rhyme isn’t a rhyme at all, they have a fundamental problem which won’t change by having it pointed out.
The workshops I have participated in has been for pure enjoyment (so far) but with professional teachers… actually the best feedback was when were all writing the same anthology… we are all responsible for the same book in the end… we had to be honest to each other. I wouldn’t say we offended each other, but there were moments when I had to reflect and think before grabbing my pen and write again.
Maybe I’m too attached to the idea that you either can or you can’t. You can be a Sunday painter, take classes, have your work exhibited in the local town hall with the rest of the group and still be a lousy painter.
I think there are a lot of louse painters who still can be a little better… and maybe that’s what it’s all about… it’s like running, I will never be a world champion… but still I enjoy to run a little bit faster than I did the day before.
That’s different. Running is a physical attribute. You can train muscles and you can make them more efficient. A runner runs, always the same way, one foot in front of the other from a to b. There are an infinite number of ways of painting, techniques, and effects, and they all produce different results, many of which most people would say are rubbish. If someone insists on painting ‘realistic’ landscapes and can’t see that the colours are awful and the perspective is wrong, you’re not going to change it with practice.
Maybe it’s so… I still feel that my writing improves by practice… many famous authors say that they achieve it by routine and hard work…
Yes, that’s true, I think that’s exactly how we improve, by practice, hard work, reading other writers and writing writing writing.
It sounds like lots of people would welcome more in the way of constructive critique. I have found the online poetry communities very kind and welcoming, but I do wonder if I’ve made myself a little too comfortable. I do struggle to critique other people’s poems, though. I don’t feel I know enough about poetic technique to really comment helpfully. I can say what a poem makes me feel, and I love it when someone uses a form, but so subtly that I don’t notice it. I’d be interested in a closed group, but I’d be worried I’d be taking more than I gave.
Early in my creative blogging career I did a series of flash fiction prompts with Jane Dougherty, who was a very generous constructive critic. I’ve revised some poems following feedback. I’ve never done a face to face workshop that involved feedback.
My daughter has just done her English Literature GCSE, and it’s been interesting hearing her talk about poetry, and picking up a few terms…
Sarah, I have always felt you come with such confidence so it surprises me that you never taken a course or a workshop… but yes I feel it’s much harder to give critique online than receiving it…
That’s very kind of you. I’ve learned a lot through reading other people – and I like the DVerse model, the expectation that you will read lots of poems. Maybe reading is the best way f learning to write?
I did read a statistic some years ago, which basically said that there are many more people writing poetry than there are reading it!
Ha.. I believe that… I actually think that a poet on dVerse sometimes get more readings than many published poets ever get.
I think that’s true. And dVerse sets the environment up so there are many readers. I’ve published a few poems in journals but some of these journals have only a few hundred subscribers. The number of readers are far less. I know that’s the case since I’m usually a subscriber and do not have time to read the whole issues. But then there isn’t the motivation to read that dVerse provides.
Reading other’s poems for me is very helpful and instructive. Reading gives me ideas and pointers and tricks on how to better phrase my verses or write a good ending. I am glad that dVerse provides this kind of experience.
It’s one of the things I appreciate most about dVerse.
I HAVE TO TAKE COVER!!!! TORNADO SIGHTINGS…
Beware of the ruby slippers.
The forbidden word!
Stay safe, Toni !!
Stay safe!
One of my main memories of farm life as a child in Indiana was a tornado. Keep safe!
Greetings all. Often your comments are helpful, and I would love more feedback. Especially content, the feelings it evokes. I want my work to improve. It’s great to hear what works for you as a reader, but also what doesn’t. Some of my references are obscure. It is especially delightful when you see something I didn’t! ( though there can be a pang of ‘no you don’t get it’ in there as well)
-Eric
Sent from my iPad
I agree Eric… sometimes I realize that people haven’t caught it at all, which is actually a feedback to improve my clarity… I have also given feedback and gotten the feedback … finally someone who gets it…. a feedback on feedback violating rule 5… still a great compliment.
I think sometimes we can be obscure as we want to be. Is the poem always for the reader? Maybe sometimes it is a personal expression and it’s just ok that everyone doesn’t “get it”. Not that I would want that on a regular basis…but sometimes for me it is ok.
On a level you are right… but a part of the poem always “belong” to the reader… they add their experience… maybe instead of “obscure” I like that some poems have parts that are open… like a canvas for the reader to fill.
Yes, that is true. 🙂 The reader has rights to interpretation. I like the comparison to a canvass. Nice.
indeed. at ti’s best, it is a partnership between reader and author. co -creating. sometimes *I* don’t really ‘get it, even when i wrote it! and that can only be pointed out by readers
That reminds me of Barthes’ The Death of the Author — I think that becomes even more important in poetry. I always enjoy individual interpretations, though I understand the feeling of being “misunderstood” in content or its intent. That happens sometimes.
hm, i’ll have to read that..
I believe feedback helps expand my perspective. I know what I want to say but I don’t know if it’s accomplished without feedback. Feedback is hard to accept when my thoughts are set but I eventually learn something new.
I think that giving feedback is often even harder than to receive it.
I agree. It’s hard to know where the trails of thought lead.
It’s the sharing of ideas that helps so much. For example, someone recently pointed out that the last verse of one of my poems could stand on its own, which sent me perusing old works, and wondering about culling.
I never know quite what to say when I’m not sure where the poet is going with a poem.
Sometimes it’s OK to ask where it’s leading… it could be an open end, it could be left for you to fill in.
Hello from Cape Cod – a wonderful muse for writing.
My personal opinions:
I think one of the interesting things about dVerse, is seeing the diversity of responses to a prompt, and to my poem that was motivated by that same prompt. Sometimes people “walk away” from my poem at a place I never expected…and that’s interesting to me. I like to see the “connections” someone makes with my words. Sometimes they “jump” to a memory, a feeling; it spurs them to go somewhere I didn’t mean for the poem to go. Some might be tempted to say or feel “that’s not right; that’s not what I meant.” For me, I take that as positive feedback. For me, it’s the engagement I want as a writer / or that I feel with another’s words. Sure, sometimes we write “our” feelings and “for us” but if it’s then shared on dVerse or elsewhere, we’re putting it “out there.” Someone’s “connection” is a compliment. They’ve been moved by my words – even if not as I intended. Hope this makes sense?
I agree… and for someone to give their reflection or adding their own emotion can be as much as the original poem… Quite often I find that poems I’m reading gives me thoughts that I pour into my own poetry… it could be a phrase in my comment, it could be a thought that wasn’t part of your thinking… yet there is often a connection between what I read and what I write.
It does make sense – poetry, like all art – finds meaning in the audience response.
I’ll add one more thing here. Every once in a while, I’ll read a poem and think “what the heck???” I just don’t get it. So I’ll read a second time. If I still don’t really understand it, I’ll figure there is a personal meaning this writer feels with these words…so I’ll try to respond to a portion of the work. I’m reminded of some modern art that I look at and figure – okay. This is just not my style. And that’s okay.
Valid point
I agree – the reader creates their own poem when they read your poem. I love it when someone spots something I haven’t noticed, or interprets something in an unexpected way. And sometimes I find myself thinking “Oh yes, I was angry, or sad, or whatever, when I wrote that line, I just didn’t realise it at the time…”!
True
What a wonderful discussion we have started… I feel sad because I’ve got to go back to bed… but the bar is full… please take what you need and continue the discussion.
Thanks Bjorn!
Good night, Bjorn. Thank you for leading this interesting thread of discussion. Sweet dreams!
ah you know, there’s a big part of me that wants it, wants it bad. like, brutal honesty. go ahead, rip it apart! it’s great to hear that people like it, but i want someone to hate it. i want to get angry hurt, depressed, upset. These are emotions too, isn’t that the real meat of poetry, emotion? I want to get fired up, it feels Alive! Here i am being vulnerable! go ahead. spill it! What in life is all peace and love and happiness? There’s old trauma in me that i’ve been carrying all these years, and i want it out. I love it when you all like what i’ve written, truly. But there’s only so much baklava i can down in one sitting, y ou know? give me a lemon to even it out.
erbiage, I think you are bravely asking for constructive criticism. Maybe you could approach those you trust in the dVerse community to offer their thoughts. Some have their emails on their blogs or maybe leave a comment for them.
Mish, I am, and invite anyone to bring any and everything you’ve got. I’m at Eric.Erb@gmail.com.
Also you hit a nerve, thank you! It’s easier for me to lay that out here than to approach individuals one-on-one. Reminds me that my birth mother and I have different approaches to being vulnerable. I have an easier time of it when I don’t know the others well, she can only do it in an intimate setting with people she knows well…
Also I try to practice detachment. My poems aren’t me. A critique of them isn’t a critique of me as a person. Tough I am trying to improve both the poems and the man
erbiage, I can relate to the vulnerability. It is easier to be criticized by strangers. I can respond without worrying about repercussions or ruining extremely valuable relationships. I still think there are kinder ways to critique. It’s all in the approach.
I like your perspective on detaching from the poem. We are so much more than our poems. 🙂
I approach poetry as I do most things in my personal life; from a position of extreme inferiority complex.
When giving constructive feedback, I rarely feel comfortable and/or competent enough to share my perspective. I mean, who am I to be so presumptuous? I’m just some guy with a blog who enjoys putting words together to convey emotions. But on the rare occasion a peer asks for my opinion, I give my besteffort.
My odd inferiority thing works well for me in receiving constructive feedback. I’m a bit greedy about it, as I relish any tempering that sharpens and strengthens my lyrical sword. I find that having a pre-bruised ego comes in handy, even when the critiques venture into malicious intent.
Hi Barry, so nice to see you.
I like the way you are able to use your pre-bruised ego to accept feedback. Hopefully you have not experienced too many that are simply mean-spirited when commenting. That is not constructive at all.
Thanks Mish. I’ve only had one or two negative responses, but it spoke more to the content of my poems rather than a technical/artistic deconstruction. Someone didn’t like that the speaker of one of my poems didn’t learn a morally sound lesson, or he didn’t receive adequate shaming, comeuppance or whatever. I channelled that energy into another poem about me not always writing pretty, so I guess I lied about my ego being sufficiently bruised. 😉
Hah! We are stronger than we think. I think that any speaking voice in poetry should be welcome and not criticized. The voice is part of the creative construction of the poem and actually gives the reader even more to ponder. Just my opinion.
Barry, from this can come sensitivity, caring and empathy. But you are an amazing and unique person. No one is quite like you. You are a gift, please do not deny us.
Thank you for the wonderful compliment. I will do my best. 😊
Barry I think it takes courage to write but even more to give constructive criticism… it requires a lot of trust in the people around you and it requires you to tell them the same on their writing. I have actually found that constructive criticism works better without a teacher, but maybe you require a moderator… someone who can break in a discussion when it’s going to far.
Hey Björn, this is such a valuable discussion. Thanks for sharing certain rules that one can follow while providing constructive feedback — I have bookmarked to come back to it whenever I would find myself in a conundrum regarding the same.
Feedback has been rather tumultuous for me. Since poetry was my only form of expression when I started writing, I was totally averse to feedback — I would find myself happy with the knowledge that I am being read and that lasted for a bit. But I’ve grown since then both in the numerical age as well as my craft (hopefully?). I was a member and then the President of my college’s Literary society, that was pretty great in terms of the feedback shared in the group. I regained my confidence in my own improvement and evolution because certain fellow members often shared pinpointed, sometimes harsh feedback.
All the suggestions shared in the previous comments regarding the interchange of feedback, including the considerations while giving and receiving feedback, are cherished.
If there is anyone who would like to have an email exchange and partake in an active reading of each other’s work and partaking in this process, I would love to do it.
Also, I welcome all forms of feedback and critiques (including those harsh or bitter or difficult to swallow) on my posts. Thank you. 🙂
HA, your comments are always good, whether addressed to me or to others.. You are very insightful. I would welcome such an exchange.
Wonderful! Thank you — you can mail me at anmolarora20@gmail.com. 🙂
If I ever have anything harsh to tell you I will do that in private… as I have said, it require a lot of courage to stick out your neck and do it in public. In the past I have seen other stepping in to my defense when I receive negative feedback, and that does not work either (a few times).
The negative feedback i have received on my blog has been.
1. I don’t understand your poem… that one is usually wrapped into something that expresses a clear misunderstanding in interpretation… this should be a message to me to express it clearer unless I want to be cloak and dagger…
2. I don’t like the moral/ethics of your poem…. cannot do anything about that… we are all different.
3. Your poem doesn’t rhyme, is wrong in meter or something else….
Then of course spelling and grammar which doesn’t even count as negative in my view.
For me the one that really wants me to change the poem is usually more number 1… after all we want to make ourselves understood… a metaphor that is too clever should be changed.
What I would really like is comment that talks about cliches or lack of originality, but those I rarely receive.
Bjorn, thank you for stating what you would be looking for in criticism!
“The breezes at dawn have secrets to tell you
Don’t go back to sleep!
You must ask for what you really want.
Don’t go back to sleep!
People are going back and forth
across the doorsill where the two worlds touch,
The door is round and open
Don’t go back to sleep!”
-Rumi
We must ask for what we really want! I want my poetry to deliver the reader from themselves.
Thanks! That would be kind of you. ❤
I understand how others might jump onto the bandwagon in case of an open feedback, which would be a diversion from its initial import.
The ethical considerations are varied — one can not do anything about it. Also, when someone doesn't understand a poem because of a cleverly done metaphor or its narrative entanglement, I'd prefer to know what they didn't understand and what they did, instead of a plain rejection of anything to be garnered from it.
Yes, the lack of originality or repetition in different poems of a particular sentiment or imagery and even vocabulary would be a perfect place for pointing it out and correction of the redundancy.
Thanks again for a productive discussion. 🙂
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, HA. Your background and experience would be an asset to anyone desiring more feedback on their work. Very nice of you to offer up an email exchange for this purpose.
Bjorn has left the pub (with the time difference in Sweden) but I’m sure he’ll be back to read your post. Perhaps you could add this idea on your blog with the next poem that you link up to dVerse. I’m sure some would be open to it.
I read all of the comments here but I’ve never been in a situation where I could have given constructive feedback. Part of the problem, seeing from my end is the grey area of what one consider as profession and the other consider as hobby. Allow me to explain, there are poets here which are well ‘full-time poets’, there is also participation from bloggers like me who because of certain reasons can’t post regularly and also don’t possess enough information (knowledge, can also be used here) to give a feedback. So for us we try to behave in a bit of savior faire, as unlike those who’ve mastered the craft, we’re still learning. So instead of building a false impression I while appreciating the work of other person leave a note highlighting what I like in their creative expressions.. My point being to give a feedback (and to take it), the writer as well as the critique should be of same or higher standards in knowledge of the craft in question.
We recognize that there are some new poets or writers just building their own confidence, so in this scenario, giving and taking feedback in an open forum may not be the best way. I agree with you that the giver and taker, should have a trusting and honest relationship, and relatively the same experience, so that the exchange is meaningful.
As a new writer years ago, I found out that reading other poems by experienced writers was the best way to learn and improve my craft. And the encourageing words and support of these experienced poets kept me going and wanting to improve.
Hello…. one of the first time I linked up one of the more senior members of the staff told me of his first experience linking up the to bar… there is a slight sense of nervousness entering a community, you saw some of the poets being quite experienced, some writing poems you didn’t quite understand etc… Some of my own brazenness in the beginning came from the fact that I write in a second language…so I could always surprise in a positive way ha ha…
I think we always overestimate the knowledge of the people writing, I think all of us are amateurs, as blogging is not compatible by normal publishing anyway…
My thought has always been to see the feedback and interpretation of a poem makes me read poetry as a writer (not just a reader)… this makes me grow, it makes me improve my own writing, and inspire me to the next poem.
And we underestimate the value of ourselves. Sight11, your perspective is valuable, regardless of your background or experience. Yes, it will be very different commentary than a poet who’s authored 3 books and won numberous poetry contests, but that doesn’t make it any less valuable. Be honest, be yourself. And welcome to the pub!
This is great info for me because I don’t know the rules at all. I try to be kind. I always am hoping someone will give constructive feedback. I need to learn. One poem I posted on this site did get feedback and I actually posted an alternate ending. I heard nothing further through. Thank you for this instruction.
If you want constructive feedback, you have to indicate that in your blog post (if you want it out in the open) or you can request for it privately too, like email for privacy.
It is often hard to get feedback in the open (and probably not advisable)… you can always send an email and many of us would feel ready to do it (based on time etc)…
Just to point out, the rules I indicated are set by all the people involved, or the teacher etc. I have found that these rules have worked for me, but I think there are others with other experience and knowledge.
One thing that hasn’t been addressed here is finding a “first reader.” I have a friend I’ve never met, from the other side of the world, half my age, opposite gender, but somehow we “clicked” through a mutual online group, traded some poetry, and now email several times a week with something new we’ve written, sending our first, miserably overwrought, overwritten drafts. We trust each other completely to tell (in a no holds barred way) what to cut, what to add, when something doesn’t work. An invaluable resource. I imagine there are many friendships that have formed through d’Verse where 2 people could decide to act as a first reader for each other. Especially for those who might not want to throw their poems out to a large critique group, this kind of one on one sharing might be very helpful.
I have seen this work very well with two of our founders, Brian and Claudia. They would email to each other their own poems and ask for constructive feedback, before it is openly posted in their blogs. It was effective with them because they have built a relationship of trust and respect. They are not active anymore in their blogs so we missed their writing very much.
Not sure I’d want to expose my poems to the public through my blog in the egg stage. They may not be butterflies when I post them, but at least they usually pass as caterpillars.
This is a great idea Sarah, I would love that and this is a great advice… to find someone who can invest time and effort (and probably get the same type back would be wonderful…
I was once asked to review a complete book to write a review that ended up on the backside of a (self) published book… that was a great and somewhat challenging effort…
LÄRA AV STUTEN
Kära. Vara inte konstig.
Stuten är jo brunstig,
men kaputt i verket.
Vara häller märket.
OK
Forgive me for being an ignorant unilanguage american, I do love the idea of other languages.
google translate has this as:
READ FROM THE BOX
Dear. Do not be weird.
The stut is bad,
but cut to work.
Product is pouring the brand.
I think that is wonderful, Sarah. 🙂 Thanks for sharing.
Evening, Poets! Thanks, Bjorn, for hosting this insightful pub talk. I participated with the Haiku Poets of the Garden State intermittantly for about a year some years back. The group met monthly, and each of us would receive constructive feedback on a sample of haiku, tanka or haibun that we brought with us for the group to review. I received valuable feedback that guided my revision of the haibun I eventually published in Cattails, “That Call.” I believe that constructive feedback from a community of trusted poets can help each of us improve our craft.
Hi Frank. It is a bit quiet in here. I agree that trust is key. If we don’t feel comfortable with the group we are in, we may not welcome the criticism. Congrats on your publication. Is Cattails available to order online?
Hi, Mish. Thank you! Cattails is the online journal of the United Haiku and Tanka Society (UHTS). If you’re interested, the link to my Haibun that’s published there can be found here: https://frankjtassone.com/publications/
Thanks, Frank. I will definitely check it out. 🙂
😀
I have similar experience and it’s a great way to learn to trust each other… (including going out for a beer every once in a while)…
I love it when I write something and someone reads it and gets something totally different. They tell me what I wrote, and I say to myself “Is that what I said?” Sometimes it takes a little time, but I usually see it.
I love it when that happens too.
That is exactly what I love as well… sometimes it makes me shape the poem differently to make it more clear… but mostly I just love the different interpretation… which is more like a poetry analysis.
Hi Grace…I’ve been in and out the pub between dealing with cold symptoms. 😦
This discussion has led to many suggestions for constructive critique….from emailing with a trusted fellow poet, attending a local poetry group, forming one via Skype or perhaps another type of forum online. Some great ideas.
Hope you are feeling better Mish. Yes, a lot of good ideas. I think that if poets want to create their own small critique group or even one-to- one, with another poet, for constructive feedback, they should go for it.
I usually try to include how a poem made me feel when I comment – that’s what is most important to me – or point out a phrase that touched me in some way. Sometimes there just isn’t enough time to comment on every poem I read and I fall back on the like button, so at least the poet knows that I read their offering. I love this community of poets and all the diversity it supports. Any feedback, in any form, that fellow pubsters leave on a post is a gift that should be unwrapped and appreciated. Some can give more than others.
Take it easy, Mish. Fell better soon.
I think that type of feedback is one of the most valuable (and the one you can expect in an open forum)… always great with any feedback
I used to belong to a few online “workshops” for fiction, poetry, and flash fiction. They were moderated (and closed, but not limited in number) groups in which you would submit your work and get feedback on it. You also were required to give feedback on others. There were some experienced writers giving really good feedback, which was tremendous for a new writer. No one savaged anyone’s work. Critiquing writers were generous with their comments with the intention of helping the writer develop their piece.
Later, I joined a flash fiction workshop that kept the number limited and was moderated. You had to do a certain number of critiques a month.
These were all good learning experiences for me. The trust issue was firmly in the hands of the moderator who would warn an individual if their comments were out of line.
Also, I learned that critiquing someone else’s work can be as much of a learning experience as receiving crits on your own work.
I so much agree with your last point… giving crits develops you as much as writing… and you have to find the right tone, the way to express yourself to get your words right. Then of course it has to be fun for both parties.
I have learned so much from all of you on d’Verse. I now find I enjoy writing haiku as much as any form we do. The details about haiku have helped me immensely. Helpful criticism is sometimes hard to accept, but in the end it is a helpful way to grow.
You are very right… to give and receive is what makes us grow.
I am in such a group on LinkedIn, and there is a mentor. But I soon got tired of it It is easier to write and publish. At times, I need to ‘repurpose’ the content, if it hs been written for a specific prompt, but needs tweaking for publication elsewhere.
I think the write and publish mode is what we all do… sometimes I feel a need to slow down and really focus on improving… maybe we need to do a bit of both
I like feedback which tells me what lines a reader likes, and what interpretation they put on it. Sometimes that shows me that there is something anomalous in its construction & I might change a line – other times someone has said they do not understand it at all and am happy to explain my intentions.
I dislike feedback which has nothing to do with the poem and is just someone’s subjective view on the topic.
I have studied in a master-class with an English writer and found that difficult not least because I am not a fast beginner but take ages to come up with something and then the block sets in. I am still trying to find my own voice and that means sticking with topics I know something about – internally or externally.
I find Rilke’s letter to a young poet the best critique of criticism – hope others do/will too
https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/text/letters-young-poet-first-letter
Laura, Thank you for the rilke letter. my god, that is fantastic!
so glad you thought so – Rilke is incredibly kind and really encourages us all to be our own critics – the book is available online but if you prefer can read them all the letters in PDF
Click to access rainer-maria-rilke-letters-to-a-young-poet.pdf
Excellent point… and I think that any feedback has to be in such a way that the poet can find and feel the way to change himself….
I’ve enjoyed reading the comments above. Great discussion. I haven’t had any formal poetry instruction, and I don’t really feel qualified to give in-depth feedback. Sometimes I will mention a particular phrase I like, or how a poem makes me feel. As others have mentioned, I also have read poems that I simply do not understand–though sometimes I will still like the feeling I get from such a poem, so I will tell the author that. I feel that I’ve learned a great deal from reading the work of other poets and also by experimenting with different forms.
The poems we post on dVerse to a prompt have to be poems that we’ve written relatively quickly, so I don’t think they are always “finished.” I’ve gone back to some poems I’ve posted to work on them some more, but I think it’s been more in response to perhaps reading others or just letting thoughts percolate for a while in my head.
Also–I think that writing poetry has improved my other writing. (I have written/edited several books of history/gender studies.) Have others found this to be true, too?
Yes … very valid… we are all uncertain on different levels. After all if you are published you rarely blog (I know a few exceptions)… the purpose of dVerse is not criticism at all, and I think everyone of us see what we write on the blog more like drafts or sketches… To go back to a poem and read through the comments can be a good guide, but if you just wait a few days I often find that my poems needs to be refreshed simply because I read it with new eyes. My best poems are usually those that I write and then leave and revisit a little bit later…
Yes my writing has improved also at work… sometimes I find myself wanting to change words in an email simply because the meter is better by changing some words 🙂
🙂
Yes! Elevate the state of the lowly email with meter! I have done this, too. Waiting for someone to notice. Perhaps it is a subtle thing.
An idea for a critiquing workshop is to take famous poet and critique their work rather than critique the members’ poems putting members on the spot. This gives the poets exposure to other poets, in a more organized way, who have been successful in the past.
You are actually taking the my idea directly… this was my suggestion for next Pubtalk… we should each one of us take a poem from famous (probably dead) poet and pretend that we gave constructive feedback/criticism or interpretation…
That should work well as a pub talk.
When dVerse began in 2011, the Thursday prompt, Meeting the Bar–Craft and Critique–was meant to be a forum for constructive critique. I was assigned to that prompt at first along with others, including Luke Prater, who used to run a poetry critique Facebook Group. In the first month or two, guidelines were offered along with the prompts to facilitate the efficacy of the process. However, the critique aspect never caught on with those who participated in the pub at that time. I believe many did not feel qualified to jump into the role, and so the critique aspect fell off. I suggest going back and taking a look at some of those first posts if anyone is really interested.
Being a part of Luke’s private group helped me enormously. I learned so much from the other participants and of late, I feel that I could use a similar kick in the rear to get going. From the aspect of a person being critiqued I have 2 suggestions: you don’t need to follow every suggestion, and, divorce yourself from the poem so that you can receive input objectively.
I’ve also been a part of a couple of critique groups over the years for my two novels. I will share a couple of negative experiences: I rewrote over and over until I was ready to puke because I did not discriminate and tried to use every single suggestion. That probably doubled the amount of time it took me to write. Second, as you know the beginning of the novel is what draws in the reader and I had a painful time with that. At one meeting, another writer said, without elaborating, “I would never read that book.” Because of that, I set the novel aside for a good year or more. The critique was harsh and really unfounded. I later found that her statement was supposed to mean that the beginning didn’t draw her in. This could have had a sad ending, but I wrote the bones of my second novel during the haitus.
Well, this is probably more than anyone wants. I would love to be part of another critique group now.
This is very helpful, especially number 3. It’s important to know how one’s poem has made the reader feel. Sometimes you don’t know if you have connected with the reader. Sometimes it is the opposite of what you intended and it’s good to know!
re: “Can feedback be given on an open platform like dVerse?”
Yes, of course it can. Perhaps there should be an Opt In mechanism to express that the author is “Open to Criticism” regarding a post. Could be as simple as adding a tag like, #OpenToCriticism. #PleaseBePolite Eventually, I would hope open communication between artists would be just that: open. But for now, I will remember William Congreve’s admonition, “Hell hath no fury like a poet scorned.”
…or misquoted.
Hi everyone I have posted a new article on my blog. The article is about my personal battle against a constant presence of sadness. I thought my post will help those who are in this situation to know that they are not alone in this and to others who think that this is nothing just a myth.. I hope my post conveys the fact that its very much real. I hope the people who are going through this might open up too and feel that its okay to not to be okay.
Great topic Bjorn. I always appreciate getting feedback. I find it fascinating to hear how others experience a poem I have written. I also like to reflect back to a poet the lines they have written that resonate with me most. This is a positive way for me to say what jumped out at me with any negativity.