Hello poets.
If we go back to the subject of my topics so far it circle around the fact that poetry has grown into a fringe part of art expression. I wanted to discuss how we can make poetry more interesting outside the group we are.
Today I want to bring up the subject of provocation or being controversial in art and more specifically in politics.
A fountain by Marcel Duchamp , once a very provocative piece of art
First — a provocation is often something felt by the reader, it could be anger or sorrow but most importantly it should evoke strong emotions.
Second — a provocation can be of many kinds. It could be in the form you decide to present your art of poetry. The art of poetry has often developed by provoking your audience in how it’s done. If your poem breaks established norms it can always be provocative.
Third — a provocation can also provoke in choice of subject. It can break the norms on what is accepted in what you describe both in terms of subject and views it expresses.
But no matter what, the ability to be provocative depends on who you are addressing. If your audience all are nodding in approval you are never truly provocative.
I have a few rules for this.
Don’t be provocative just to shock, it has to be based on what you truly believe. There has to be a purpose beyond to be bad.
Your provocation has to be subtle enough to shock but never alienate your audience.
Provocation without a sense of humor often fails.
Today I would like you to focus on provocations on the subject of politics.
What do you think about this? Do you admire any poetic provocateur? Why?
Are there any topics that provokes you?
What type of provocation do you use (or would like to use) the most?
Or do you think that a poet should avoid provocations… if so how could that be done?
dVerse 
Good evening everyone… now I’m eager for another evening on provocation and being controversial in poetry… if you have any example of poetry that you find controversial.
That is not a fountain. It is a urinal. LOL
That’s what I thought too! lol!
Pat
Ha.. but Duchamp gave it the name fountain… remember he was there to provoke, so he had to make it better than it was… hence it’s a fountain.
It was a nice way of saying, “Suck my … urine.”
Not me… it was Duchamp founding the Dada movement…
Right. I was talking about him.
🙂
I wouldn’t want to drink from it. LOL!
Ditto!
Though what if it were the fountain of youth?
That is exactly what I thought. A urinal.
A provocative topic for discussion Bjorn. For me, its politics and religious themes. I don’t write about it, if I can help it as I respect that everyone has their own views and experiences. What provokes me normally is politics that I don’t agree or believe in – as sometimes people can be “blind” on “truths” like religious people blindly believing in Trump on the issue of abortion, when he is clearly not qualified to be the President. But then the other peson may say the same about me. So its really a matter of perspective and if I don’t know the writer or poet close enough, I just keep quiet and let it pass.
I have not come across any poet that writes politics in a provocative manner. Perhaps I should search for them and give them my reaction as well. Interesting topic in these interesting times.
I think that a lot of the poetry we write at dVerse and other sites would be provocative if it’s read by someone with the opposite view… which is what I meant with being provocative depends very much on your audience.
Many poets on d’Verse write provocative when they rant against Trump or his politics. But as Bjorn said, it is only provocative to those who agree with Trump. They may not think they are provocative because they may believe they are just singing with the choir.
I’m down for it — poetry, politics, wherever. People who only say/write what others want to hear/read aren’t stretching the limits. They aren’t making tbe walls warble. Donald Trump. I admire his obnoxious mouth and head.
He is actually a master in provoking… it’s how he wins… I might disagree with him, but he does it well (maybe not too good of a poet though)
Right. I’m not talking about his politics, but his spew — straight from thought to mouth, no filter. I love it. His personality.
LOL, well said, Shawna
Hi Bjorn and All. It’s bright and sunny here, second day in a row, life is good. Now on to provocation, I will have to think about poetic provocateurs for a minute, but one of my favorite visual political artists is Ai Weiwei. Back in a few…
Indeed… art is filled with it, and in my view many poets provoke with how they write, or on the choice of topics…
Last year I wrote two poems I consider to be provocative: one was when Hugh Hefner died, and one was when Harvey Weinstein was arrested. I’m proud of both of them (the poems). There is something both exhilirating and liberating about writing about injustice. I’m sure those who follow the practices of either of these gentlemen wouldn’t appreciate them, but it did not stop me from writing them.
I’m not sure exactly what you mean by ‘provocation’. I can see political activism and commitment, making political points in a poetic way. Provocation though seems to me to be not what poetry does. Provocation implies eliciting a response, a negative one. It isn’t usually a good idea if you want to change minds. Who did you have in mind?
My example above was from Dada and how they provoked the art movement… there are thousand of examples… like using swear words… to write about sexuality… or intentionally use bad grammar.
I meant who did you have in mind as an example of a political provocateur in poetry. It isn’t something I know anything about.
I think many writing at dVerse would be considered provocative at a Trump rally (myself included).
Quite possibly.
So I will give two examples of poets who have been provocative…
Anna Akhmatova — a Soviet poet who wrote things that could both provoke an anti communist and a Stalinist…
Paul Celan who wrote about Nazi labor camps…
But the list is long… some of Pablo Neruda’s poems can provoke…
I’d still describe those poets as politically engaged rather than provocative. I think we just differ in our interpretation of the word.
You make a good point – provocation does not change minds. It just gets both sides rationalizing their conflicting positions out of self-defense if not to annoy their opponent. People, even the good guys, can find ways to rationalize anything.
That true. Provocation seems to me to mean goading the object of the poem to get a reaction. A politically involved poem wants to get across an injustice and make it understandable to the greatest number. Not the same thing.
I think maybe it’s a display of the unexpected — a shock to the system, good or bad.
I once saw a stage performance in which a woman got naked and used her lactating breasts to paint a spread of canvases. I loved it, for so many reasons. But love or hate, no one was going to be indifferent. All who saw were going to have a strong response, one way or the other. The same would be true if this sort of thing were done with words on paper.
Exactly… I feel that it’s the surprise and the initial reaction you are after… then follow the love or the hate (or even loath)… but no one can be indifferent.
It’s not boring, that’s for sure.
I’m sure you’re right. But if we’re talking specifically about political provocation in poetry, I’m still not sure about whether we’re talking about provocation or activism. Provocation is done purely to get up somebody’s nose. Like Bjorn’s example of Paul Celan whose poetry is based on his experiences in a death camp. I would call his poetry politically engaged rather than provocative. Provocative would be writing a poem extolling the virtues of the death camps and sending it to the Jewish Chronicle.
Hey Jane: You said, “Provocation though seems to me to be not what poetry does. ” Well, I’m not sure what you mean by that, but certain there are tons of different things that poetry does. If you feel like it, I just wrote a post called “The No True Poet”, addressing that issue. Provocation is a great thing that many poets do. “Provoking is like sanding against the grain, perhaps, to use a poetic metaphor. Smile
Click here to see the post
I’m sure there is politically provocative poetry around, I just don’t know any of it. What I am taking issue with is the definition of provocation. Sensibilities are provoked and it’s done with the intention of eliciting a response. With the visual arts it’s easy to say how an artist can be provocative. Sensibilities can be upset in lots of different ways, and the result is outrage, censure etc. With poetry and with a political target, it has to have a particular target, to be aimed at a particular individual or institution with the express intention of riling them enough to provoke a backlash. It isn’t at all the same as writing poetry that is eye-opening or moving. You’d get provocation with very biting political satire or with some rap lyrics, but who writes biting political satire poetry? Nobody wants to be sued for defamation.
This evening we came to talk about writing in a controversial way, and I remember the first time I read Gertrude Stein… and her way of using language is a great provocation I think…
A Carafe, that is a Blind Glass
BY GERTRUDE STEIN
A kind in glass and a cousin, a spectacle and nothing strange a single hurt color and an arrangement in a system to pointing. All this and not ordinary, not unordered in not resembling. The difference is spreading.
https://reubenwoolley.wordpress.com/ Rueben daily posts political poems from political poets, mostly around humans being harmed or exploited but many other topics as well.
Thank you… I will try to see what I can find…
This is the link to the poetry part of it, sorry:
https://iamnotasilentpoet.wordpress.com/
With politic poetry, provocation is largely in the eyes of the reader.
Case in point: I specialize in writing political limericks from a lefty/liberal/progressive point of view. Those who agree with me and who share my utter disdain, if not hatred, for Donald Trump, are more likely to find my political limericks entertaining, than provocative. On the other hand, Trump supporters become enraged by them and are provoked to argue, insult, and spew venom in my direction and at liberals in general.
Hello Madeleine… long time no see… Limericks are great to provoke… they are so close to satire and irony (and of course humor) which is great for political provocations (if it ever reaches anyone with an opposite view)
Madeleine – YES, you go girl!! Peace…!
Likewise, Madeleine, if poets on your site were to write a limericks that supported policies Trump pushes, then (using your sentence) “[democrats] become enraged by them and are provoked to argue, insult, and spew venom in [their] direction and at [conservatives] in general.
I find liberals to be far more venomous that most conservatives. I hope that is provocative.
Thanks Sabio for proving my case.
PS – I am not a conservative, in case you were guessing
I don’t think being provocative is what is needed to make poetry popular. Being provocative is mainly about creating enemies and rationalizing one’s spiritual, political or economic theories to those enemies. It is about putting people down, not raising them up. Admittedly being provocative might draw some interest, just like bullies in the schoolyard draw interest, but, don’t forget, provocation can happen from *all* sides, not just the one the poet identifies with the most.
As an alternative consider love songs – consider the most popular love songs that make you catch your breath and want to hear the song over again and again. That’s what I think most people are looking for in poetry, song, drama, and art in general.
One could consider a love song as a provocation against those poets who reject love songs. Being provocative, however, was not the intent. The intent was more guiding the reader to transcendence.
I think that you have a point… but we also have to remember that for every lovesong sung there are thousands that are never heard.
Frank: For me, nothing is as nauseating as a love poem. There, was that provocative? I think many people don’t like poetry that is fluffy and lovey. I think lots of people can be changed by provocation. When I hear anti-gay comments at work, I turn provocative and make a comment.
One example, my colleague suggested I go see the next “LBP” because I would relate better. I asked, “What does LBP mean?” and he said, “Little Brown Person, of course.” I was disgusted but ignored it and saw the patient. She was having a panic attack and I did relate in many ways he could not have. But to make a point to him when I came out of the room, I said to him, in front of several others (who heard his original comment) “You know, you were right, I don’t think she would have related well to a BFP?” And he asked, “What is that?” And I said, “A big fat person”.
It worked. He shook his head and said begrudgingly, “I get it.”
Sometimes confrontation is the best tool. Sometimes.
To take up on love poems, I think many are nauseating simply because they are filled with cliches . A love song is not necessary poetry and can still be beautiful because of it being set to music… without the music it’s often flat. On the other hand there are love poems that are simply great because they provoke. One of my favorite love poems “Valentine” by Carol Ann Duffy does just that.
Agree, Bjorn.
There are a lot of cliches in love poems.
However, if one is looking for cliches one can also find them those flat, politically-charged provocative poems.
I don’t *think* I find it provocative that you find love poems nauseating, Sabio. I imagine I expected that reaction. That may be why I mentioned them.
I do agree with you that one should not sugar coat pain. That is how I understand your phrase, “Sometimes confrontation is the best tool.”
Pain may be useful, if it is faced and not rationalized away with sentimentality from both those dumping on others and those being dumped upon.
However, when causing others pain becomes part of a self-righteous blame game between opponents attempting to provoke the other because the other deserves it, I wonder what could make both of them simply stop playing that game. Do they both need more pain?
I think a lot of poets today do more ranting. I have read poets ranting on and on about Trump. I don’t care for the man but I don’t need someone ranting about him. I have better things to do with my time. I admire people who write about the sadness of global warming or the situation in Syria. If you want to win my opinion, appeal to my heart, not rant. I also don’t believe being funny about the starving in Syria is the way to go. One cannot always use humor in a tactful and tasteful way. Personally I am sick of politics and ranters.
I agree… there are topics where humor cannot be used…. but when it comes to political enemies a good laugh is worth more than all the rants you can write.
I have no time for ranting, Toni,, and I too admire people who write about the sadness of global warming or the situation in Syria, those who appeal to the heart.
I just wonder how it can be written to touch the hearts of those not already crying…
Ranting bothers me too, Kanzen. But it doesn’t matter if the ranting about global warming, Trump, pollution or junk diets, ranting which assumes the reader should obviously agree is irritating, but believers love it. So if they feel strongly about cutting CO2 emissions at the expense of jobs, they will love global warming rants. Provocative?
Good evening, poets, and thank you for this thought-provoking topic, Björn. It’s interesting that your comment on Marcel Duchamp’s urinal said ‘a very provocative piece of art’; what is provocative or controversial for one generation is often or little or no matter to another. Controversy, unlike art itself, has a life span that depends on the views and culture of a particular period in history. The Nazis destroyed art and literature, and banned musicians from playing in public, but people had already seen, read or heard it, so it was already in the public domain, and it had made an impression. So long as we make people sit up with our work, it will have been worthwhile.
I agree that provocative has to be based on what one truly believes and subtle enough to shock but never alienate the audience, especially political poetry. Like Grace, I don’t really write about politics or and religion.
Personally I avoid religion, but politics (and especially pacifism) is something I think can be used… the best political poems are either satires or write about something else as a metaphor…
Kim: I largely agree with what you say, but I think that we sometimes have to risk alienating some to reach others. So no rule there. Non-alienating material is insipid political correctness in disguise, perhaps. If we don’t challenge each other, the propagandists win.
how do I sign in? Where is Mr. Winky todqay???? what am I missing?
Every fourth week we meet just to discuss… 🙂
Oh! no poetry??? Ok.
I asked a friend who disagrees totally with some of my beliefs, why she wanted to still be my friend, when we were completely opposite on some key issues. She replied “I disagree with you, but you do it so well!” That shocked me. Are we provoked to conversation, or provoked to anger? I know all don’t share my thoughts even in poetry. That is no reason for me not to express them.
I think that we have become so sensitive these days, that we cannot get past the fact that the subject provokes so we cannot appreciate how well it is done… When I read some of the Soviet or Fascist poetry which I totally disagree with I can still appreciate the poetry… maybe it’s that fact that I disagree that makes me read it even.
Yes, I read things that I disagree with because I appreciate the manner in which it is expressed. I learn how to express myself better also. I want to learn to write poetry. I know what I believe and not believe. I’m not really looking for help with that.
Nicely said, Mary !
I don’t really know. For me, it seems that poetry became provocative enough during the two World Wars. The horrors in these events sparked comment/poetry all over the world. Japan, France, England, US., etc…allhad they say…Interesting that in Japan, an anti war poem was taken right before Japan entered into WWII and made a ‘call’ to nationalism. I have written poetry about war, animal abuse, religion, etc, But I stay away from Trumpism. I can’t mix my sentiments with him. LOL!
Religion is especially sharp with me. I have direct experience with the looney tunes in my family and they are like boulders. Generally better to keep away from that strain. Not so funny, that after the Holocaust,there was nothing to write for many poets in Europe because the horror was too great for imagination.
Good point, still some of my favorite poetry from the Holocaust was written and remain a legacy… like Paul Celan…
Either I have forgotten these or never read them. my family was involved in the Holocaust in Hungary and it was a forbidden topic in our house when we were growing up. Go figure.
This is a poem that have touched me deeply… sad and filled with anger…
https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/death-fugue
Whoa. that poem, the black at night, etc..reminds me of the ash from the ovens. I knew a German nurse who said her village was close to Auschwitz and the ash came down everywhere. Insane, inhumane world.
Maybe with a poem like this it’s possible to approach a difficult subject…
Yes, a nightmare.
in a list of things that poetry can achieve, like inform, inspire, heartfelt sentiments, I think to provoke is near the top. Close to half my poetics are political in theme, and I have provoked some members to shy away, not wanting to be touched by the rawness and the anger. To some extent, when any of us display our personal belief system, which is hard to avoid, there is always a few folks who are provoked or offended–but to the group’s credit, in all the years I have been a part of it, I have never encountered a mean or bigoted comment. I have been told that often my poems are too long (which illustrates short attention spans) and that often I use salty vernacular. I just write from my own unique point of view, revealing a lot of who I am in the verse.
So if we write within your stated parameters, sometimes a poem will emerge as provocative; that is as it should be. For me, poetry should never be bland or colorless.
As Kerouac said, poets should be an “outlaw of the sensorium”.
On a different note–our writing to chosen forms in order to create a dVerse Book of Forms, I’m a bit confused. So far we’ve only done two forms, Sonnet & Rubaiyat, and each runs for a month. That means that we will only have 12 forms to chose from for the book. Is that what you envisioned? I mean, over the years we all have worked with dozens of forms. Is this going to be a series of books to come?
First I agree…. we should be able to find some way to be skilled enough to provoke and not anger… which is a skill… a good laugh is hard to beat…
On the form side we have done the prompts quite broad and also added aspects in several steps… with all the poems we get plus the additions we will write I think it will be a great book even if it’s “only” 12 forms…
Bjorn: I don’t think Glenn said “we should be able to find some way to be skilled enough to provoke and not anger” — am I mistaken, or did you put words in his mouth.
Indeed, Glenn is not afraid to anger and writes with rawness and anger himself (as he tells us). Provoking anger is sometimes a very effective and wise move. It all depends. Sweet rules don’t work here.
Glenn, superbly stated. Oh, and I really love your poems that are constrained by Forms, because your poems are often indeed too long for me, and I do NOT have a short attention span. I also walk away from rambling people at parties. LOL. Provocative enough. I love your raw stuff too, btw.
After this discussion so far I feel I have failed a bit to hit the point, maybe it’s the word provocation that brings out the wrong reaction…
Looking back most poetry, now famous provoked a strong reaction when it was originally written.
HOWL by Allen Ginzburg is a prime example… it was even forbidden at times.
So good.
This is why I love Anne Sexton — or anyone who has no problem throwing “cock and balls” into a poem.
Have you watched The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel? It depicts exactly what you’re talking about — the humor and wake-the-eff-up-edness of an attention-grabbing, fearless stage performance.
As I understand your concept, Bjorn, it seems to me Glenn’s recent political diatribe met all requirements. It was provocative, evocative, acerbic, and humorous; a rollicking good read which covered painful truths succinctly, but somehow left the reader with a smile. It was splendid political satire.
I agree with you Beverly… I always enjoy Glenn’s poetry.
I’m going to bed now, but I’m going to put it to you that rap is much closer to the idea of politically provocative poetry than any of the poets and poems mentioned so far. Rap takes socio-political themes and sets out to be provocative. It often sets out to be offensive and violent too. Just pointing out the horrors or war or poverty isn’t provocative, it’s social commentary. I think there has to be a dose of over the top if not downright lies and distortions for a poem to be provocative. It invites a backlash from the offended party.
I agree on rap…
Indeed, Jane. Rap is provocative and offensive. That is why it works so well with many. And that is why so many other folks dislike it. Viva la Diversity!
That is what I mean by provocation, when the sentiments are nasty, unreconstructed macho vulgarity. It’s done for effect. If you like the sentiments you can sing along, if you don’t you can be offended.
Actually there are some female rappers who can be even more shocking *smiles* but rap as a form is so much closer to poetry than song lyrics…
What I find shocking are the gangsta rappers who talk about women as though they are rags they’d wipe the floor with, if they were ever into wiping floors. I can’t imagine what women rappers rap about. There’s slam poetry too but that tends not to be provocative.
My favorite female rapper is Lauryn Hill …
I’d never heard of her. Just read up her entry in wikipedia.
She is also a great singer…. and you might remember the cover of Killing me softly she sung in the 90s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKOtzIo-uYw
She has a good voice, and it’s a good cover version, but I’m not a fan of rap at all.
Interesting. Surely the audience it reaches makes all the difference. How jaded? What have they already seen? I think there is a certain percentage, a sweet spot if you will, where the provocation is new enough to be incendiary or hits the right nerve. If it is too outrageous, it will simply be ignored or disbelieved.
It baffles me how much people, some dear friends of mine that seem to be fairly together otherwise, continually fall for the same propaganda. They are being kept in a wound-up state, full of righteous indignation, and completely oblivious to what’s really going on.
Thought-provoking as usual Bjorn. Thank you. -Eric
Sent from my iPad
Exactly… and believing you are provoking when you are really singing in the same choir as everyone else is great.
Hi Bjorn. Good luck with the provocation discussion. I like participating here, but dVerse is far from a site for provocation. It has always been politely conservative, and it succeeds well in being that. My very provocative poetry I do not share here. I have been very marginally provocative once or twice on here, receiving very few comments – so I quickly got the point. “Thank you, but not here”. So I respectfully save my “edgy stuff” for another site, as well as for the people who read my site on a regular basis. In my 15 years of responding to online prompts, the two sites I found the most provocative (outside the box), though certainly not shockingly so, were Dana Guthrie’s “Read, Write, Poem”, and Tess Kincaid’s “Magpie Tales” – sadly both gone. I enjoy bVerse the way it is, and I have other outlets for my provocative poetry. Today is my 72nd birthday, so I am signing off to go and be personally provocative! 🙂
Bjorn, I wanted to expand just a little on why I found these two sites nurtured both excellent, and more provocative writing. BTW – both “Read Write Poem” and “Magpie Tales” signed off with vibrant communities of participants, disappointed to see the sites gone. In the case of “Read Write Poem”, there were so many participants, 3 separate new prompt sites sprang up immediately to fill the void. I published one of the sites that followed in the wake of RWP. I was entitled “Writer’s Island”, and I published for nearly 5 years until disrupted by health. The provocative nature of RWP came from the greater focus on freedom of writing, and a lesser focus on form. The provocative brilliance of Tess’s site came from the fact that her prompts were visual, and her taste for the visual prompts was provocative, so the writing it inspired was wide open. I read some great poems from the participants of both of those sites, as I do here – so fostering the provocative in no way diminishes quality of writing. The opposite would be argued by some to be the case. All this is in the sincere spirit of participating in your discussion of provocation Bjorn
I think there is a level of being a bit careful on this site… but I still find a few things mildly provocative… but then you can never know beforehand. I remember one which I thought was non controversial which I thought more philosophical which was about the word freedom and how you cannot have freedom without responsibility… and for some the word freedom is so sacred it triggered some very interesting responses.
Politics is fodder for comedians, cartoonists, and some poets! I love a provocative piece that challenges one to think beyond their box. I posted a political provocative Haikai poem for Frank Tassone’s president challenge on Saturday. It says that the president is a reflection of the values of voters who put him in office. My challenge was to look in the mirror!
I agree with you on this. If the electoral system can be manipulated – in any country- those who get manipulated are equal partners in crime.
Thanks Reena… It is much easier to blame the other person.
Roth, you do indeed seem very good at handling and offering provocative stuff.
Thank you Sabio! I appreciate your affirmation!
Ha… yes we had a similar but totally different situation when it took a very long time to form a government after election … and people blamed the politicians they had elected.
That is usually the case. We are not ready to accept our own shortcomings
Thoughtful prompt. Here’s my rant:
I wonder how many past
presidents would be celebrated
in this day and age. (rhetorical question)
Sexual exploits have unraveled
the threads of many contenders
for office, those in the public
eye, and the bastards that have
been in positions of power,
and abusing it for years. Lies
bother me. I prefer truth,
even if uncomfortable.
Keep your religious beliefs
and practices to yourself Do
not fuse them into politics.
Money should have no influence
in ability to run for office–
and yet, it is only the wealthy
who can amass the funds needed,
thus making it nearly impossible
for an average or poor person
to ever rise to higher positions.
Unfortunately, they are the ones
being over-taxed and over-worked.
Don’t even get me started on healthcare,
and college tuition.
Smile. Nice rant Purple
Thanks, Sabio. I haven’t stopped, but at least you can’t hear me!
I wonder sometimes how much has changed, or weather social media has allowed us to see what has been going on since time begain!??
Good point, Dwight.
From an outside perspective I marvel how important it is to preserve the current state instead of seeing how it can be improved…
I cannot imagine what other countries are thinking about the U.S. Now it is actually becoming frightening.
Sadly there are too many provocations, or things deemed to be provocations in this day and age. My only provocation is I am moving house so don’t have time to participate but I look forward to reading contributions.
I think maybe the deemed in your first sentence is utterly important.
Politics is provocative all the time. One oft-repeated issue that comes up in my part of the world is artistic freedom. Reinterpretation of mythology or history is often deemed offensive, as conservatives go into overdrive.
I believe that layers of meaning get added on in the course of time, and a certain amount of peeling is inevitable – despite the consequences it can invite.
I have never seen this on mythology… but I can understand that in some societies it can be deemed sacred and hence forbidden to interpret or use.
I’m sorry I missed this last night. Most people shy away from being provocative. Perhaps controversial would be a better term? In order for a poet to be an activist (raising awareness on various political issues, in my humble opinion I don’t differentiate between constitutional or organised religion and politics) she or he would have to be provocative or controversial. One addresses the accepted status quo and that necessarily ruffles some feathers. One doesn’t want to start an argument (very difficult not to) but at least one wants to start a debate on whatever topic the poet discussed.
To provoke is to raise awareness, is to make people think.
The visual artists Joseph Beuys and Yoko Ono comes to mind here as well.
Well said, Petru
Sometimes provocation is a way to avoid raising awareness of one’s own faults by focusing on the faults of others.
I am getting this idea from M. Scott Peck’s *Further Along the Road Less Traveled* in the chapter “Blame and Forgiveness”. Assuming I understood it correctly.
Provocation fuels the blame game. It keeps it going.
Certainly self reflection can be even more provocative than putting the blame on others in my opinion.
I think you just steered this discussion back on topic 🙂 Do you not see a difference between being controversial and being provocative? Controversial is what you are the moment you take a stand on any subject. You’re going to offend as many people as you please. Provocative (to me) is when the point of the exercise isn’t to change or challenge, but just to get a violent reaction.
Thanks for this fruitful discussion, Bjorn. I gleaned a lot from your words as well as the opinions shared by everyone. I agree with some more than others but it’s wonderful to get an idea of different perspectives, which is at the core of poetry and other forms of art.
For me, I think I abide by the chant of the second-wave of feminists — The Personal is Political. Things like art and poetry are so personal to us that their expression is inherently an act of politics. And they are bound to be controversial and provocative when they do not follow the majoritarian narrative. Someone has mentioned rap earlier, which is actually such a powerful symbol of political and personal poetry when it is being utilized as an expression of the oppression and as an assertion of the demands of a community.
Poetry cannot work in isolation from human experience. For instance, poems of love and lovers are provocative when they bridge barriers imposed by class, age, race, and religion even today.
Bjorn, you bring up a good topic (and as you know, I do not shy away from provocative in any way). I will go up and read and interact with the other comments, but first, I want to point out a rhetorical trap you wrote when you said,
“Or do you think that a poet should avoid provocations… if so how could that be done?”.
This is a form of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy. So I just put up a post called “No True Poet” to address that. Click here to see the post. I hope my HTML works.
I know you are very broad and don’t buy into any “No True Poetry” trap, but I wanted to point out that even famous poets do. It is a a common human foible.
Please feel free to comment on my blog because it is easy to follow comments there, while here, for some reason, comment following is turned off.
Damn, over 100 comments–nice job, Bjorn. Pub Talk revisited seems opportune at present. Sabio gets the prize for following more comments than most–tied with Jane D.
I love how we can get some passion and discussion into the bar… I wonder how many times more I can come up with good topics.
I can’t believe no one asked for a drink over this discussion. Certainly been great to read everyone’s comments. I see this is a once 4 weekly discussion but I have put a poem up. Written almost a couple of years ago just after I’d had a poem accepted for NZ’s first ever anthology of political poems. But the accept date had just missed out for this poem. I take the view that politics affects every area of our life. And as to the drink. I’ll just have a cool orange juice tonight.
Hello – a little late to the bar (I’m blaming the weather). A very eye opening read for a newer poet like myself. I’ve been following Jamie Dedes’ prompts and she often has provocative themes – or maybe thought provoking themes is a better term? Here is a link for those who are curious:
I do agree with a few others here that provocation is in the “eye of the beholder”. We all have different limits as to what offends and what is merely par for the course. Like breastfeeding – for some it’s an affront to modesty, others it’s a way to feed a child.
As poets, if we have a large enough platform, I think we should use our words to not only observe and describe the world around us but also to criticize and wonder, expand and hope, connect and explore. There is only so much that can be said about love and flowers – what is the purpose of our writing?
If it isn’t to provoke, then why write?
I’d posit that new schools of poetry (perhaps especially late 19th and 20th century schools) are often provocative when young and’ bursting on the scene – more than a few were scandalous at their starts, then became mainstream, and eventually old hat a school or three down the ages. I’d also define “provocative” for use in describing authors as breaking established forms, of breaking rules of ‘polite’ society, of talking back to their literary elders without reverence, of using ugly subjects and not making them ‘nice.’
Of my favorite provacateurs would be Kathy Acker – her work blew my mind when I first read/heard her in college. These days, I’m enjoying Carmen Gimenez Smith and Kay Ulanday Barret as voices that are pushing and delighting me at the same time.