Snow flickers through the streetlight. Her lips meet mine. Her friends call out they are leaving and she disappears through the white curtain into the darkness of night, leaving me standing in the parking lot, unsure I will ever see her again. My fingers play at a receipt in my pocket. Seven digits in orange colored pencil are the only hope I have.
Twenty years ago tonight I met my wife through a great confluence of events, including me telling my friends I was going to marry her. Who does that the first time they meet someone? I dunno—guess it was a bit of magic.
This has absolutely nothing to do with our topic today though, ha. Let’s talk about how we communicate and provide feedback to each other on our poems. We have three main venues each week where we come together as a community and at each we fly all over the world reading poetry, responses to prompts or just what is on poet’s hearts and minds. Along the way we leave breadcrumbs, a trail of our meanderings and often sustenance for the lonely poet waiting on the other end for someone to respond to their work.
Just last week I stumbled upon a conversation about commenting and the writer was talking about how superficial some of the comments he gets are. I can agree, I have seen and received plenty in my day. It was part of the motivation for my poem for Poetics.
So what do you appreciate when someone leaves a comment on one of your poems?
A few best practices for me:
- If you are struggling to think of something to say, focus on what the poem says to you, how it makes you feel, a memory that it brings up, what thoughts it generates in your head. It does not have to be what the poet was thinking. I have had many share something that added depth to a poem or makes me look at it in a new way.
- Another thing is to focus on an aspect of the piece that you thought worked, a poetic device such as alliteration, or rhyme scheme, a turn of phrase that jumped out at you.
- If you are going to leave crit on a piece or make a negative comment, be specific. To say, ‘this piece did not work for me’ or ‘ugh, this poem sucks,’ without telling the author why—-you are just being a jerk. I am being nice in just using jerk there. Smiles.
Ok, your turn—what thoughts or best practices do you have when it comes to how we communicate with each other or provide feedback?
Have a great Monday, and see you right back here tomorrow night for OpenLinkNight.
dVerse 
for me time is an issue… as for many I assume… on occasion a piece doesn’t speak to me… i just don’t get it and the last thing i want to say is “i don’t get it”… one thing I’ve noticed is often people just read what others are saying and repeat a comment… I try not to read others comments and look at the piece personally… that’s my two cents
i hear you on the not wanting to admit to not getting a poem.. when i started writing and reading poetry, i thought i have to get each poem and tried to analyze, looked up words.. today i think about such pieces more like abstract paintings.. i don’t need to get them, i just can look at them and enjoy the colors or how the lines are drawn, the rhythm and i will say just this in my comment
i hear you…sometimes in those cases when i dont get it…i do go tot he comments to hopefully get a clue…
Me too, Brian! I always find myself wondering if it would be good to tell the writer that I just don’t GET his poem at all…….
This is a great topic for discussion b/c I know I fail at leaving good comments.
Part of it, no most of it, is the teacher/tutor in me who for more than 20 years has been positive and encouraging. How do you let go of that?
Another reason is that I have too many things going on. Usually one of my three kids (born in four yrs) needs me for something or I need to be doing something for them. My mind is in a million different spots at once and I just don’t have time to devote to lengthy & profound responses.
As far as critique, who am I to judge? Last week someone went to my other blog after I left a comment on his (not the link that went with the poem). He proceeded to tell me it was not poetry b/c it didn’t rhyme. OK, that was his opinion, but the way he said it was rude and offensive. I would never do that.
ugh…that’s rude indeed.. i also don’t manage to leave long and in depth comments but try to make the poet feel that i read carefully and leave them some encouraging words, how the poem made me feel or share a memory that it evoked, think that also builds bridges
ah i hear you…there are those that seem to get off on just being rude and mean..and who is to judge what poetry is…maybe its preference but not say its not poetry…bah…
Poetry does not always rhyme. Well, I’ve been adamant about my rhyming because that’s how I write, but every poet is unique. Every time I comment on a poem, I try to get inside the poem through my own mind’s filters and then the poet’s mind. If both match, the poem works wonders for me. If it doesn’t, I get to learn something new! 🙂
I know how it sucks when someone does not comment on my poem even though they read it (some of my friends.. I make them read lol) I feel hurt just because they didn’t have anything to say about my poem! So definitely if someone writes a negative comment, I don’t know, I might stop writing altogether!! I’m glad you all are there to push me to the best. 🙂
that is often the dilemma not wanting to be hurtful but just knowing that it’s hard to think of something positive. And I agree…who is really to say what is poetry? My training was fairly classical but being part of dVerse has helped me to look more deeply at work that I would otherwise earlier have merely dismissed.A case in point is the latest Poetry Review Mag….to begin with I found little to identify with but as I read and reread the works they became more than just the words and somehow the people behind them talked to me. Keep up the good work!!!
You, too!
In my early days around here, I have to admit that I was quite reluctant to give criticism, limiting myself to commenting on poems that I liked. Partly that was because I was only beginning to cut my teeth as a poet; partly it was because criticism, which is a neutral term, is almost always given and received negatively. It does not have to be so….
More recently, parttly as a result of an evening class I’ve been taking, if I find something in a poem that jars, then I raise it – BUT only if I can suggest a way to resolve the issue that I have.
I intorduce comments like that with a warning; usually something along the lines of “May I make a suggestion….” This warns the poet that there is a more focussed critique coming, and allows them to decide whether or not to read it.
After I have commented, it is entirely up to the original poet what they do about what I have said – which is exactly as it should be.
If a poem is not to my taste, I might say so, but I will take the time to consider how well (or not) the poem has been constructed, its use of rhythm and rhyme etc – features that poems about subjects I don’t enjoy need to have to be poetry.
So … when you guys’n’gals visit my place – and please do – feel free to offer critique, positive and negative. If I have produced a clunky line, say so, but try to suggest what you would do to improve it. If my images are vague, my metaphors mixed, my verbs don’t agree with my nouns, please tell me, because that way you help me to become a better writer.
And if you don’t want me telling you that stuff on your blog, please tell me. I am a trained proofreader, and it’s not easy to turn my proofreader’s eye off, but I can choose not to draw attention to the things I spot.
“intorduce” should read introduce – I’m a proofreader, not a typist 🙂
Priceless – laughed out loud at this one!
and ‘parttly’ should only have one ‘t’ ! 😦
smiles…i’m a bit envious about your poetry evening class ya know…smiles.. i’m always a bit careful with leaving critical comments and would only do if the poet says in the footnotes that they’re welcome or if i know the poet well and know that it would be ok for them. we tried to have more crit in the comments at one point but found face to face is the better place for it
I should have added that I restrict this more in-depth commenting to Thursday and Saturday prompts – I find it pretty much impossible to keep up on OLN.
Your criticisms, proofreadings, suggestions, thoughts and more are coveted on my blog. Don’t pull punches, and you don’t have to be careful — especially if being careful means you might not say what you mean. I appreciate your thoughts — thanks.
I would LOVE you to proofread my stuff. I am a proofreader too, and also not a typist, lol. If I miss anything, I would much prefer that the mistakes not remain uncorrected. Also open to suggestions about the work.
I have to admit that sometimes I leave a rather inane and vague comment like ‘I loved this’ or ‘this was beautiful’. Because the poem did mean something to me, but I haven’t got the time or mood or confidence to analyse it thoroughly. Ideally, I should return when I do have the time or inspiration and leave a more profound comment then. But we all know the risk there: that it will never happen, that I will move on to other things and forget. I hate this rush-rushedness… but I am also afraid of missing something or somebody. So I hurtle on.
i hear you…there are poems that i think “oh wow…really should come back and read again” but seldom make it..
yes i do this
I only leave feedback if something really strikes me and I may be one of those people guilty of what some call superficial feedback. I’m not one of those in depth analytical types, but if I think a poem is beautiful…I’ll say so. Sometimes I’ll just “like” a poem and not leave a comment, just due to not being able to think of anything to say. I try, but occasionally there are some poems even that I just don’t get, but I’m not gonna come out and say it.
hmm..why not write it in a comment…” i like the poem because of this and this” just one line and it’s a valuable feedback for the poet..
there are def poems that i dont get as well…smiles.
Thank you for raising up the issue Brian~
In the beginning, I didn’t know how to give comments but over time, I have learned to give them, because I have been blessed to receive them.
During OLN, where there are lots of poems to read and time is an issue, I can understand if visitors leave one short liner comments. I already know who they are, so I don’t mind. But during Thursdays or Saturdays, when we only have a few people linking up, I appreciate more thoughtful comments and feedback including constructive ones. What I enjoy in reading comments are unique responses, and I reciprocate in kind, by giving my own inputs and thoughts on the writer’s posts. Thoughtfulness begets thoughtfulness.
Now as to critiques, this should be indicated by the poet that he/she welcomes it or if you know the writer, that he/she doesn’t mind it. I have read that some poets/writers welcome critique, and I think we should have at least one day in a month where we can link up (old and new) and give/receive critiques like what Luke and his team did for us before. I really learned a lot from that short session.
If I don’t know the writer well or I don’t like their posts, I try to say something positive about their share, but I don’t go overboard with my comments. And for those I really don’t like or doesn’t appeal to me, I skip over and don’t leave any comments.
Happy Monday to all ~
By the way, I love your opening lines… .Happy special day to both of you 🙂
think you raise an important point…you give comments because you have been blessed, receiving them… everyone loves to get comments, loves encouraging words, love to hear that their poem has been read…why would you otherwise link up… getting comments was and is so important for me…and because of this i want to take the time to comment back because i know people took their time to read and comment on my stuff (and none of us has time to waste) and i really want to honor that and read and comment on theirs as well.
that’s why i also return each comment
I look for what resonates with me in my bubble…sometimes my comments are essay’s, sometimes my comments tell more secrets than my poetry, and sometimes the work truly leaves me speechless. I read many and don’t comment, simply for the love of the reading. I find it difficult to speak to the more personal pieces, and seldom do I “critique” anything…if your heart has brought it to the table…that makes me happy. Initially I was very caught up in receiving comments…I now realize that so many read and are not comfortable with leaving their comments publicly, so I’ve chilled out a bit there. And I have been known to request a dictionary or quite simply say wayyyyy over my head…a reflection on me as reader…not the writer. I would never belittle anyone who took the time to leave so much as boo about one of my pieces. I love sharing my work and knowing someone has visited. That will never get old.
smiles…i think your comments are always so refreshing…let them bubble out…smiles
When you visit my blog, don’t be mute.
Feel free to critique. Be astute.
Admiration is sweet,
And a LOL can’t be beat.
But I beg you, don’t say that it’s “cute.”
haha..so cool…
smiles…you know i am so tempted to drop in and say cute…smiles…
I’ve been too sad to limerick of late
and seldom comment – so much on my plate –
but I love your stuff,
just don’t say so enough.
Is it cute? Maybe sometimes. Mostly it’s great.
Thanks Claudia!
LOL! Brian, I just knew someone would say exactly what you said. 🙂
Thanks so much Rosemary. I know how hard it is to write limericks when times are tough. So I extra-appreciate your limerick!
Hey Brian – First of all, happy anniversary! That post certainly began with a lovely story.
In terms of commenting – I think it is very difficult. You manage to maintain a great deal of energy and articulateness in all of your visits. I find it it a bit harder for me to maintain that energy, so I worry that I am sometimes near incoherent!
Some people complain about a lack of criticism, but honestly, I think many people do not really want criticism – sometimes perhaps, but there is an element of reaching out which is just seeking acknowledgement. Not even praise (though, of course, everyone likes praise) but just a sense of being heard.
It is all a bit of having to do too much too fast, I think, part of modern society but also genuinely wanting to check in on people or return visits. I have to say that I do not take the least bit of offense if someone leaves a very short or even relatively cryptic comment. I know that they are very likely under similar pressures. (Of course one loves thoughtful comments, but life is difficult! And many people are balancing much.)
k.
smiles…i think i leave cryptic comments as well sometimes..partly has to do with the language…smiles
Claudia – you always leave comments in the language of thoughtfulness. k.
“the sense of being heard.” rings true for me Karin.
Yeah, it might be cool if d’Verse poets developed “Comment Badges” to be place on only posted poem that let’s readers know what degree of comment is welcome. Or better yet, if the names on Mr. Linky were color coded, depending on my mood, I’d know if it were safe for me to stop in. 🙂
Yes, I agree that what people most want – here and everywhere! – is to feel heard.
Great topic, Brian. Happy Anniversary!
I like that readers let me know they stopped in and liked what they read even if the note is brief. I will do the same and try to add a detail or two. (Never ever should these blogs give me the choice to click “like” as if a Facebook setting!) I don’t respond to all commenters -only to those who show they have spent time to say something thoughtful.
I leave negative critique only if compelled in some way to share–and never unless I have been a regular reader and intend to keep reading the poems at that site. I appreciate the same, especially when the reader shares the reason and what they would suggest. Sometimes it is doubly important to do so when a poet can be construed in a way different than intended–a whoops experience. I don’t assume the reader expects me to change a poem, and rarely expect my comments to have that effect. And when a comment seems way off to me, I know something isn’t working.
My favorite comments address both form and content. I enjoy knowing the associations and stories arising from what you read on my blog.
i hear you on the likes and adding a detail or two makes all the difference and can just mean so much encouragement for the poet
Hello Brian,
Just wanted to wish you and family a very happy anniversary! Such a special, lovely story.
If I don’t “get” a piece of writing, my first thought is that it’s probably something wrong with me rather than the poem…. don’t feel competent to hand out negative comments.
why thank you ma’am…and there are def ones i cant comment to as far as form…those i usually try to pick something out that i can appreciate…
I just feel very grateful that anyone actually reads anything I write and then choses to leave any kind of comment, good, bad or indifferent. I seldom [read never] reply to comments as they are given freely and I accept them for what they are.
As far as leaving comments, I guess I prefer hard hitting, urban, personal poetry that is taken from life. I connect with them very easily and I am more apt to comment on them. There are many poems I just dont ‘get’ for want of a better word. if I dont ‘get’ it, I sure am not to make any comment, although at times I would love to ask the question.
Time is never an issue for me, but I am restricted by disability to how long I can remain online. On a good day it can be 2 maybe 3 hours, on a bad day, make that minutes. On a good day, that can mean reading through a lot of the offerings on OLN, which of course is my favourite night of the week poetry wise. On a bad day, it means I read very few and I have to try to catch up the following day if possible.
Anyone out there who has ever left a comment for me, I thank you and I appreciate the time and effort put into each response. I welcome any kind of feedback, critique or otherwise. If you dont ‘get’ it, I dont mind, but I also understand how embarrassing it can be to admit that in a public forum.
And just to finish off, Happy Anniversary Brian, have a great day/evening and thank your partner very much indeed for sharing you with the dVerse crowd.
i like your point of comments given freely, not with the intention “if i comment on your poem, i expect you to comment on my poem as well” but i think it’s a bit like in a friendship as well…we really love to give but when one just gives and gives and the other never gives back, it’s getting a bit out of balance
smiles…thank you for the warm wishes…and i appreciate you especially in light of the limitations that you have..and i feel much the same in regards to to being open to crit…as i said int he article, if it is productive crit..
as to claudias point i do agree with that as well…there are plenty who play every prompt out there and never get around to commenting on anyone…and this is not limited to any one site…its a discussion we have had on several sites actually…what to do with those that link and run …and never give anything back to the community…
Brian, I have found that after a while I don’t bother to comment on others’ poetry if I don’t see them respond to anyone ever. Again, I am not talking only about dVerse, but about many sites. I will admit that those people who wish to link ONLY so their blogs can receive comments (and who never reciprocate) are not my favorites..
Excellent points Nino.
BTW – you might want to go to your Gravatar profile and add your poetry website too it. I liked you comment and wanted to visit your blog but couldn’t find it. I could if you listed it on your profile. Just a thought.
I wasn’t aware I could do that, so thanks for pointing that out to me. It is now done and the link appears to work.
Thanks again, much appreciated.
ok–logging off for tonight.. think bri should be around in a bit–
happy anniversary brian! love the story how you met, there is indeed some magic in this and really respect you as well so much for the thoughtful and personal comments you leave around blogworld. you’re my big role model when it comes to commenting cause as you know, i found the way to your blog by a comment you left on another blog. i read it and found it so thoughtful that i was getting curious about the person behind the comment… smiles
smiles…glad you followed my trail as it has given me a great friendship…and a great crit partner too…smiles.
All my studies (online) involved being part of a small tutor group, with a requirement for detailed critique, using the praise sandwich principle. I found it difficult at first to hold back whe I felt something could do with a tweak or two. Now that there are so many prompt sites and so much reading, it is difficult to find time to be more than superficial in commenting. If I can’t be positive, I prefer to leave no comment at all.
have been subject to the sandwich technique myself as well…ha…there are a number of sites out there as well and always reading to be done…and maybe there is something to that..
I echo Claudia’s comment – you are the Iron Man of commenting – you always find something positive, encouraging and sincere to write and it makes me try to write more than just “loved it.” – Loved it!- Mosk
smiles…appreciate you brotha
This is a topic that needs a lot of discussion and even more consensus. It’s true reading many poets each week is time consuming and for me emotionally draining. It’s like going to the Louvre some weeks because the artists lay their life, their feelings, and their hearts in the words they offer up. It makes it all the more difficult when what is written is NOT poetry – it is writing, sometimes without a title – sometimes essay, sometimes well composed prose, sometimes folklore, sometimes rant but without those things that exalt words above that station to poetry.
I would caution against using the “like” button by itself. Many are puzzled by it, others feel insulted by it, and it’s basically meaningless. I use it when I want to add a plus to the comment I’ve left. When I feel the piece itself is above what I’d expect, exceptional in my personal definition of poetry, and exalted or unique.
The last thing I want to do is hurt anyone’s feelings. The thing all of us at d’Verse want to do is to encourage. One of the reasons I have enjoyed writing the articles on form is that through them I can point out what makes poetry differ from prose, why it has always been considered an “elevated” form in any language. However, critical analyses change with every decade it seems. I think it is probably the business of poets to submit their work and hope for editor response. Hope for their negatives as well as their positives. After all they are usually just a person in charge of prioritizing what they like for a given periodical. Not everything anyone writes might qualify. Some people like form poetry and think it always has a place; some hate it and only want cutting edge free verse. However, good writing shines and really well crafted poetry will be published if the writer perseveres in submitting it.
I am having difficulties finding that fine line in a comment which says something meaningful and encourages while still pointing out deficiencies. It’s a subjective act and the more I consider it, the more it pulls on me. Nevertheless, the act is worth it. The value of bringing on a budding poet is seeing that person bloom, learn, achieve. I have seen a dozen or more through this very forum become poised, sure, certain of their voices and their message. I have to believe encouragement has played its part, but it has also taken study, discernment, and dedication to craft as well to produce what they have, to have accomplished much, often becoming published and recognized.
i think the key in this is knowing the poet a bit…which is hard considering we have people from all over the world and some that are in and out…having that relationship allows you a door to offer critique…or if the person asks….i will make suggests to someone that i know well enough if i see something …maybe where they could capitalize on a rhyme or something…form challenges def are a bit different as there is something very concrete you are teaching to….well thought out response gay…appreciated…
I loved that fiery response. Loved it. I am sure my style (if I even have one yet) does not match your favorite style of poetry. But I love your prompts here and your comments are critically helpful. I also like it because most folks obey the rules and keep to your forms so it limits the amount of poems — and I know what they are trying to accomplish. Really nice.
Gay … I think it’s all important, even if some is not elevated poetry. The poems I read from way back when in history are beautiful and not just singular words that are so elevated that many do not know what the poem even means. So, I think it’s all good! A place for everyone and all levels. I think that is why this works, that is d-Verse Poets Pub! We do know when we read a very good poem :)!
I don’t disagree with any of that. I only was making the point that the “like” button is a kind of “gold star” in a sense by an individual rather than having said – I was here, I read your poem and it was all right.
Also, I guess I am saying in response to those who were asking for more in-depth critique that one could posit that poetry is an elevated use of words; but to, in any way, denigrate a work by some one (who hasn’t asked for it specifically) is to bruise an ego or to make a judgment that is so subjective that it might be hurtful and not encouraging. I find rather that in disseminating information about poetry in articles, one can make suggestions about “poetics” in a general way. I very much think we are in agreement about the goals of the staff and poets who link at d’Verse Poets.
Yes! And that does illustrate the same concept. I love that many of you are so talented and educated, that in itself elevates me. Sometimes, I don’t hardly have an idea what it means. I will say something and other times I don’t feel like being ignorant 🙂
Brian, Happy Anniversary to you and T. I wish you a lifetime of happiness. 🙂
thank you…smiles…it is the anniversary of the day we met..so the lesser of our anniversaries i guess…but the one that started them all…smiles…lots of things had to come together to make it happen though so worth celebrating…
Commenting has always been something I wonder about. As time is a factor, I don’t leave long comments but I like to leave something to let the writer know that his/her writing is being read and appreciated. I’m not one to leave anything negative. Everyone has their own way of writing. Whether I understand all the writings or not, it is not for me to judge. It’s just great that someone is trusting themselves enough to put it out there for everyone to read!
true that…it takes a certain level of confidence to even put it out there…knowing that some will receive it well while others may not…and you know a comment does not have to be long to realise that the person read it…i think the appreciation you point out is key, addressing something that you appreciated…
I’m with ya.
Oh, and Happy anniversary Brian!
thank you…smiles…just getting into the conversation as i have been at work..
Loved your story here, brotherman. I confess that I do not believe I possess the literary talent / expertise to negatively critique anyone else’s writing. If you can’t say something encouraging, then don’t say nuthin’ at all. Personally, I don’t mind if a reader says something as simple as they liked it. To me, in this internet world of a million competing distractions, that’s enough of an honor. Your words are well placed though. – mosk
thanks mosk…on some level it does feel good to just be recognized…to know someone cared enough to read…on another to know it meant something to them as well…so true as well on how many distractions there are out there…
I am happy you’ve engaged us in this topic, Brian.
I have very little confidence when it comes to commenting on posts so I usually keep it short and somewhat personal. I admit to feeling very attached to some of the poets I’ve met here and look forward to reading their work and having them read mine. I am guilty of hitting the “like” button on numerous occasions w/out leaving a comment. Sometimes, I’m speechless. (sometimes I say so) I would like to increase my confidence, however, and often read comments I have received -and comments others have received- as tools for critique. I can only hope to grow my own poetry and ability to respond. And most importantly…. Happy First Meeting Anniversary to you and your wife. : )
smiles…thank you…and i think you are not alone in wondering how to comment…especially on those pieces that blow us away…and lets be honest…when we put a comment out there…we are putting ourselves out there nearly as much as we are when we are writting…i try to take great care with what i leave others…
Brian, I admit I am guilty of quick – ‘love this’ comments. But honestly sometimes that is all I have to say. And I do ‘like’ poems and do not feel insulted in anyway when people ‘like’ my writing in return. I know they have taken the time to read my poem – that means something to me. When I am moved by a poet, I try to leave a comment saying that but I in no way feel adequate to critique. I am grateful to anyone that takes the time to read anything I write and always try to thank people for their time and consideration. If I have had questions about how something is received, I have sought someone out and asked for more in depth criticism.
On a personal note, Bob and I will celebrate our first meeting on St Patricks Day – 33 years ago – Front Range Inn in Morrison CO! All my best to you and yours! K
wow…very cool….almost here…33 years….we have almost caught you…smiles…i would agree as well on asking for more in depth from someone if they gave critique or a comment you did not understand….for me this comes again back to communication…
alright poets…stepping out for a bit…keep talking…i will catch up with your thoughts in a bit…
I think it makes a difference when you’ve taken the time to get to know someone’s work a little. Until then, I wouldn’t venture to say anything critical unless they’ve asked for it. At the very least, I can express how a piece made me feel. There are times I know I don’t “get” a poem completely, and I think it’s okay to say so. Just because I don’t understand the ins and outs of a piece doesn’t mean I can’t comprehend the feeling behind it or express how it makes me feel overall. God knows I’m not as smart as Arron or Anna or Mark (to name a few), so some of their references are going to be lost on me. However, I always have a gut reaction to their pieces, and that is what I try to comment on. Hope that makes sense!
And Happy Anniversary, Brian! Nothing wrong with a little bit of magic 🙂
it does….i think some of the strongest comments are our emotional reactions to a piece…how it moved us…and we dont have to understand every bit of a poem for it to move us…
First Happy Anniversary Brian;
I love you poetic story. It especially got me me because tomorrow is our 18th anniversary. Similar to your experience I knew I wanted no one else on our first date. It was and is magic, you are right.
As for the topic at hand. I am pretty new to the group. I don’t always do the prompts and I never make it though everyone’s blog. I just don’t have the stamina some of you have.
I realize I could do a better job of leaving better comments. I get caught up in reading and enjoying and tend to leave my comments brief.
Also, I admit I do not always get the poem. I would not confess this in the comments rather I would just not comment. As for negative feedback I just don’t leave feedback. Like others have said who am I to judge.
I personally think constructive criticism can be very helpful to all parties involved.
As long as we are making confessions… I honestly did not understand that giving constructive criticism was the goal here at the dVerse Pub. I thought the way the prompt came and then we all wrote that it was spare of the moment; just for fun; rise to the challenge; if you want to…poetry.
i agree…constructive crit can be good…claudia and i usually proof each others poems but we have been doing that for a few years now and are very comfortable messing with each others words…smiles…
i would not say that our goal is constructive crit…the purpose of this conversation at least in my opinion was to talk about how to leave quality comments…or to let the person know you read and appreciated…or what you did…so i dont want to misslead you on the goal of prompts…
it is just to write…
i meant to say happy anniversary as well..that is awesome…i love hearing peoples love stories as well…
Thank you Brian, I love a good love story as well.
As for the group I am glad I am right on track and I will do better at adding more substance. I do so enjoy this group, the prompts, and the education. Cheers!
Hmmm, a bit of a vexed question. I have been running and participating in writing workshops (offline) for decades, but this community doesn’t purport to be a workshop and so I have never thought of offering that level of feedback here. I observe that, with writing, people learn by doing and by encouragement, so I try to leave encouraging comments or at the very least let them know they have been heard.
Taste is very personal. I see so many poems which I consider atrocious being praised fulsomely — not here, I hasten to add, so much as other places online. My Dad always taught me, ‘If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything,’ so if there is a poem which is absolutely not to my taste, I leave no comment. Otherwise, I look for the positive things to say. Like so many, I have trouble reading everyone because my time is limited, even on the days of fewer posts. I do my best. If I don’t catch you this time, maybe I will next time. And, as Gay pointed out, one can simply have a surfeit, even of one’s favourite thing. There is much wonderful poetry here, and I find my tastes have broadened as I learn to appreciate ways of making verse which previously I would not have considered — even so, at a certain point the brain just switches off.
I learned early in my writing life to take account of every criticism ever made of any of my poems. It usually indicates a place where something isn’t working well. On the other hand, I don’t always take the person’s advice as to how to fix that; I may well come up with what I think is an even better idea. Sometimes I decide the poem is best left alone, but I do think about the suggestions. For in-depth feedback I belong to a small, closed group on facebook, of poets with great mutual respect for each other’s work, who have come to know each other well over time. (One of them formed the group, specifically as a workshop, after getting to know the others in a few poetry-sharing forums.) This all makes for a high level of trust, and a readiness to take on board what others say. I think that is far more difficult to achieve in such a large community as dVerse, and I don’t expect it. But if anyone does have trouble with my stuff, it’s fine if you say so. 🙂
Brian, I always appreciate your comments, for their thoughtfulness and the fact that I can rely on you to read and remark on my posts. That in itself gives me a clue as to what others may appreciate from me.
And yes, loved your story of love beginning. ❤ Best wishes to you and yours!
i would def say i would not recommend trying to read everyone…ha…it is time consuming that is for sure…and it is not always easy as i try to take in consideration the person that is writing as well…it is an emotional thing as well to read so much especially when people put it out on the page…
groups like th one you talk about are invaluable…i feel you learn so much when you have people that give you that kind of feedback …trust is essential in those groups that is for sure…
Time is definitely an issue for me because I try to read as many of the submissions as possible and sometimes I just don’t know what to say. I don’t mean to sound cliche in some of my responses but I definitely don’t always find a way to respond. I try to pick my favorite line and point it out or talk about what I liked in it. For me, a comment is a comment an it lets me know that people are reading and don’t hate it haha. I’d rather have “Nice job” 10 times than nothing at all. I’ll work on being more specific. As for critic- it’s iffy for me. I not only do not want to offend someone but also my perspective on it could be a total misperception or I’ve got the beat off a bit in my head.
Yes, with different ways of pronouncing English in different countries, it is all too possible to get the beat wrong, other than what was intended. I think there’s not a lot we can do about that, as often we don’t even know that other people say this or that word differently; it just never even occurs to us that there might be another pronunciation.
smiles…i loved your comment on saturday…it was personal to you…it wasnt long and didnt need to be but it was on point and i appreciate you sharing a bit for yourself as well…
and want you to know i have great respect for you and your art gretchen…
I feel pretty torn by this issue. Poetry Criticism isn’t rocket science. It’s hard but it’s something that is learnable! (I can’t see the damn screen right now …LOL!)
I HATE that ‘likel’ button. I think it is short hand just to feel that you can say…Hey! Maybe I read your poem today.!
And how many times have we all used iit to avoid putting the time and energy into a decent crit? Now….I agree it’s hard. Meter/Rhythm/ all these things that go into poetry (or don’t) but we certainly can find something …draw something out of any poem to comment on in a deepr fashion thnn “Lovely” ‘…”Good job”, etc.
That don’t tell me squat.Give me your words, even bad words…let me know something besides on word comments. Did I connect with the experience of the reader on some level that either pissed reader off or something else?
I have to admit that I have fallen back about giving crits. I can give line crits, etc…but I think …why bother??? And this bothers me because when I see a poem, I want to ingest it fully. You got to roll it around in the mouth first, let it digest in the heart and feel the experience of the poet you are reading…You got to give something to it. And to the poet.
Now, I think we tend to think that Poetry Critique is somehow negative. It’s all in the intent and handling. I’ve gotten (very recently) some out and out mean crits….but it was because I turned someones crank about the ‘like’ button. The comments I got about a ooem were worthless. They just were a cover to attack me about that like button. LOL!
And I still HATE it!
So, we are all pressed for time and we all love poetry. is there a place for Poetry Critique in a more formal way? I think there is. Perhaps once a month at dverse someone can step out and give a presentation on this part of the craft of poetry .
Lady Nyo
Excellent suggestion, Lady Nyo! How about it, Powers That Be?
we tried poetry crit when we first opened if you remember and ran it for a couple months…luke had a team that was giving some solid crit…the goal was to develop that same mentality in others but it never really took on and people were not taking the time with each others works to really do it…
it is something to revisit..and we would need someone knowledgeable to lead it…just tossing that out there…hmmm…
Would be great idea to have a formal critique session every now and then.
What I try to is let a poet know that I have read his/her poem and found something of value there…whether it be subject matter, wordings,or whatever. I want to let the poet know that he/she has been heard. I do not look upon what we do in the blogosphere as critiquing. If a person wants a critique group, I think they need to look elsewhere. If someone finds an error in my poem, I don’t mind them sharing though…in fact I appreciate that.
In the blogosphere I appreciate reciprocity. I always try to return visits to those who have visited my blog. And I appreciate those who do the same.
hey mary…i agree…with your approach but also your point on reciprosity…its a word that gets tossed about and then broken in the same sentence…i think we have to realize that life happens sometimes that keep people from coming back…but i think it does not take long to realize as well those that visit no one or dont return your visits…and then it becomes up to you whether you want to keep supporting them or not…
there are those that i have never had a return visit from that i dont go to anymore…also there are those that i visit regardless…
I agree.
Hi, firstly happy anniversary Brian hope you and your wife have a lovely day.
This is an interesting article. I love knowing someone has taken both the time to read my work and to comment. I think that’s what writing poetry and art is all about… the community. Of course we don’t all have to like a poets style but as writers we should be able to look beyond that. What constitutes poetry for one person may not be for another but that doesn’t make it any the less valid. Art in all forms is a personal freedom of expression and I feel that if someone has been brave enough to put a piece of themselves out into the world a comment would be nice, even a helpful critique.
Mind you it’s hard, I try to comment and read as many as I can… I know on Sunday’s I love having my coffee and reading the dverse poems. I also endeavour to make a meaningful comment but I don’t know how others feel but sometimes my brain goes into a freeze. Also if I really don’t understand a poem I get a little scared to comment even though I’d really like to. I have been known just to write Lovely or beautiful but sometimes that’s how it was…just beautiful. I must admit I don’t like just pressing the like button, as it’s more a social networking gimmick, not genuine. (and I have done it and always makes me feel a little awful).
Even so like all things it’s a learning curve and through practice I will hopefully make better comments.
I have really enjoyed being a part of this community and look forward to the prompts every week and get a real kick out of reading the comments left. We really are lucky to have such an avenue.
smiles…i def like your thoughts on art…and what we can look beyond to appreciate it…we def resonate in that…and i def enjoy having you as a part of this community…it is hard…and there are times i am sure i miss the mark in some of my interpretations but i think it adds depth to it as well….it does get easier with practice…smiles.
Thanks Brian, yes, in some ways I think we all see different things in poetry so it’s easy to misinterpret. I do it all the time, I have misinterpreted songs, one a favourite and even though I know it wasn’t what the musician intended I must say I prefer my interpretation… 😉
I always appreciate thoughtful comments and constructive criticism. Brian, you give lots of good comments and so does Joy. I myself often struggle when commenting on others’ poetry. And it’s not because I don’t like a poem, sometimes it’s because they are so complex and I’m not. Thanks for the suggestions!
ha. i def understand coming upon those that are complex and not wanting to sound completely off…trust me there are plenty of times…smiles.
Hello, Brian and all (hope you had a lovely day). Since I have participated here, and only a couple of other poetry sites, my writing and commenting experience is fairly new; after 5 months I have noticed the increased amount of views and comments on my poetry and, and in turn, I have increased my reading and comments on other’s poetry….the correlation being that people have become familiar with me and I with them. It is nice to be praised and acknowledged, and I love to do the same..reciprocate.
…so if something moves me or something I write moves someone else then I’m glad to hear that, but I don’t care for any gratuitous remarks left…perhaps only for the sake of leaving a comment…these are few and far between, but I am not quite sure if they actually read the poetry…
.it is time consuming and not always possible to comment on each and every poem, but I try to fulfill my idea of responsibility in being a part of a larger
group like this and give it my due; sometimes I leave more detailed comments than other times, but all comes from my gut reaction… definitely a learning experience all in it’s own…I do not like the ‘like’ button, but it is still an acknowledgement of of sort, which is what we all want 😉
i think the more you engage the more the community engages with you…and i def think you play your part as well…smiles…i think the gut reaction is what we look for…the reality is…none of us is going to write a winner every time….there are great poets that write plenty of stinkers as well…i wonder if its ok to say that at times?
oh my, sure, I believe each of us knows which poems we write that are stinkers..;) It’s those we work hard at or are most proud of that we hope someone will connect with and feel relevancy toward..a bit of praise or applause is reinforcing ..likewise we might be disappointed if it doesn’t generate what we expected. I can def understand how an actor might feel, for example, to get overlooked for an nomination..but it’s not a race..
…the act of creating is it’s own reward and it should stand on it’s own, regardless of what comments are made generally..something great and beautiful must also stand the test of time..
Good to have the conversation 😉
I absolutely love the whole process, the whole enchilada. So, I comment as much as I can and so love the comments to me. It’s reinforcement and frankly, it’s what has kept me here a YEAR!. I cringe at times, some of my poems are personal and other times words just flow, like water, like wine, like rhyme. Thanks again for having me; this is truly one of the best things I’ve done in my life … all this writing! It’s been a week and a day and I need to do this 🙂
smiles…writing is a reward unto itself…
….my sentiments as well…
Good evening y’all! What a wonderful discussion this is. My blog is over a year old, but very neglected until this month, when I was finally able and willing to tend to it. (and i really like reheating my frozen lasagna…it tastes better to me.) Since I am still learning folks here, after I post, I read the submissions of people I recognize and try to leave a comment. Then I try to pick 10 people that I’m not familiar with and read and comment on their posts. Finally, if someone comments on mine and I haven’t commented on theirs, then I try to go comment. What I have started to notice is that my comments depend on my mood that day. Sometimes my comments are about the writing, and sometimes about how it made me feel or what it made me think about. (When I feel like George Carlin in his Hello/Goodbye routine “okay, hey, take it easy…”) I try to take a break. I don’t comment on what I’ve read on days when I don’t post because I thought it may be rude. My critiquing skills are rusty and I am trying to oil them with my visits to other sites. When I get better at it, I plan on offering more input on to those who want it.
As for what I want, right now I am very easy. I still get a thrill just checking the visit counter and almost all comments are awesome (“interesting” perplexes me because that was the beginning of my sandwich critiques when I participated in workshops decades ago and wsa challenged to find something I liked, so I bring that with me to comments that just say interesting…although I still appreciate it after I get past my stuff.) I am also guilty of posting prose to a prompt rather than poetry, so I don’t expect many comments then either. I would say most of my posts are not finished work so I am grateful for critiques, and I agree with some of the above comments that criticism does not have to be negative…the purpose is to provide a different perspective in the shared goal of improving the work. Today’s topic has given me some ideas on how to tweak my blog.
Finally, while reading the comments to this post, I thought it might meet a need if there was a day when there was a open link that only accepted five to ten links where the author was looking for a more in depth reading and critique of work. It would not be mandatory to submit in order to critique, and members who are interested in seeing critiques could read them as well. I would think that there may need to be a one posting to that link per month, or whatever time frame, in order to be fair. I don’t know that dVerse could do this, but you do already have the talent and the community.
Okay, so way to late, I am getting shy. I apologie for the lengthy comment. What I meant to say was …
lovely!
heidi
and happy meeting your wife anniversary Brian!
liking the ideas on critique and have a few ideas as well where it does not become overbearing…but i am def liking that people are sharing their thoughts on how to make it work as well….
i like how you said as well that crit does not have to be negative…a lot of times it is in the way you approach the person…the tone you take…even in written word that makes all the difference and keeps them off the defensive…
…time has always been a great issue for me… especially moving in a different time space… while half of the world are sleeping…here i am awake and working… i am a self confess slow reader… it’s already given as most of you have already noticed it from the past days… sometimes i get the chance to comment ahead of everyone but mostly i ranked amongst the bottom…. another thing is the cutural differences & preferences… most of you knew i came from phillipines & where english is only a secondary tongue… sometimes when i read a poem i get different interpretations in mind… primarily bcoz we do have different english translations… different attack to the language… and different understanding of the language…. and since i’m a stranger coming from nowhere intruding the english world i needed to adjust….
..prior to the issue of giving criticism… i prefer to be courteous & polite…i’m only 21… & i think that’s too young & less experienced to act like a cocky mr know it all… but i do admit i mention feedbacks only on the technical aspects like rhyme sheme, syllabic counts, & punctuations….
….i know most of my comments don’t hit the right point… and it’s ok… what i say on your poems is a reflection of how your work appeals to me… i don’t think i am obliged to understand & get everything that goes in a weiter’s mind…. we all have our differences and that said i tried, as much as possible, to give a unique feedback… something unusual… somthing you don’t expect to hear for it was rather express in a symbolical form…. that’s how i comment….
…def weekends are only time i can blog & comment full time since i work in weekdays…. accepting the offer on poetics is quite a challenge… but i accepted it bcoz it’s only every saturday ( though sunday at my end)… i noticed most who participated in a particular segment /activity in dverse are only linking but not doing what they’re supposed to be doing…. i find others as selfish to use this place for their own personal benefit / advantage while the rest are exerting too much effort reading & commenting… now i wonder, as mostly a native english speakers, what part of the english word: ‘comm-UNITY’ you don’t understand? or get? for you to act the way you do…. sorry if some may find my words mean today but since Brian have already raised topic for forum… i think i have to open up what/how i felt to some… at the end of the day we’re doing this for the improvement of not only this community but you… i… as an individual willing to learn… accept… & be corrected…
…smiles…
kelvin, you leave great comments…an i appreciate your honesty…here as with other poetry sites there are a population that will stop in and drop a link and never read another…i was mentioning this in an above comment…i think it comes down to a personal choice then on if you want to support them…knowing they wont return..there are several now, and even some really good poets…i just dont comment on now…the first year of dverse i commented on anyone that walked through the door…needless to say i dont any more…
Most pieces there has to be a side of relevancy and applicability to my circumstances and, what pearl of wisdom can be within the soul/poets life and viewpoint.
My husband asked me to marry after 3 hours! It definitely is unusual ~ congratulations !
ha…wow…i did wait 9 months later to pop the question…congrats to you as well…
excuse me Brian ~` I wanted to post for the prompt “the Art of letting go ” but it says Mr Linky expired 2 weeks ago, can that be corrected? Thank you kindly again ~ Deborah
Hi Deborah,
The Mr Linky with each prompt has a lifetime of 33 hours. We’ve found that after that, most people don’t go back to check and see if there’s anything new. If you’ve written to a prompt and then missed the deadline, I’d suggest that you bring it to Open Link Night and mention both on your post and in a comment here that this is a response to one of the dVerse prompts.
Most, if not all of the dVerse team, read the comments on each post/prompt, so if it was our prompt that you’ve responded to, we’re pretty likely to notice and make sure to visit.
Hope that’s helpful … smiles.
thanks tony….
openlinknight is kind of a catch all as well for all the prompts…as we have no prompt for that…i realise that for some the 33 hour turn around may not be enough, so OLN is a great time to drop those from a prompt you missed…
Sometimes, I need to re-read a poem several times to understand what it says (though apparently, according to my second grader’s book, that is the way to approach a poem – read it several times). Sometimes, I make a comment about how it made me feel or think. Sometimes, I latch on a verse that appealed to me, sometimes, on the memories that a piece of work evoked.
On the other hand, I appreciate comments that tell me what worked, and what can be reworked to make a poem better. I also appreciate the kind words that people leave. For this student, kind words are great motivations to go on.
I try to visit as many as I can, especially the familiar ones. I am sorry though if I cannot keep up – I only have an hour – max – at night to visit and read blogs. I am torn between responding to comments on my blog and visiting and reading blogs.
i hear you…there are times i def have to re-read a poem to really understand it…its good to know the comments that you appreciate as well…knowing what worked and what didnt allows us to make those jumps in our ability too…smiles….
I really enjoyed your sweet meeting-your-wife story…pretty cool. I’ve heard other stories of those who have just met and knew that that was going to be their spouse. There is something magical in that knowingness.
As far as comments go, I like to get comments that tell me that a person connected with what I wrote…that it brought up a feeling in them that they could relate to…that it resonated with them. Yes, I’ve left some superficial comments myself because frankly I don’t understand some things that people have shared. I sit and ponder and try to think of something in depth to say but it just doesn’t come. So I leave something less than meaningful… I’m not sure what else to do…but I am never rude. Critique is difficult because…like someone else said…who am I to judge another’s work when often I don’t know exactly what that person was trying to convey. No, I steer clear of that. I can correct a spelling though…smiles…
Thanks for getting a great dialogue going, Brian.
ha…i might leave a word or two on occassion that i need help spelling…dang….ha….there are many times references are lost on me that i dont pick up initially…that is where other comments are helpful in understanding the direction someone is going…critique is hard because you almost need permission to really tell someone where they could improve…
what a cool discussion…might take me an hour or so to read through it..smiles
lots to cover for sure, Claudia..it’s the ole ‘communication and honesty is best’ theory..smile
“Seven digits in orange colored pencil are the only hope I have.” Ah, my heart fluttered at this. Congratulations, sir.
That’s also how I prefer to comment when I can. I want the poet to know the words that move me as I read and/or reeead the poem. This group has such a range of styles, it is impossible for us to like or even understand all the work, even the really good work.
I think people want to be heard, or as I like to say, they want to be read. I like hearing that something I wrote, even just a line, made an emotional impact. Likewise, I am moved to tell you if I was amused, delighted, deeply moved, even hurt.
I tend to dark topics, and sometimes people hate it, you know, normal people who don’t enjoy pain 🙂 But if they’re upset or perplexed I still know the poem worked, if the subject matter is painful.
I would not offer criticism unless someone specifically asked for it. This is a lesson hard learned after writing for decades. Even advertising copywriters are reduced to tears when you tear the heart out of their baby. Or just tell them their baby is ugly. (See? Can’t stop myself 😉
I occasionally write erotica, and my girlfriend is a working erotica writer. There are numerous erotica writers in our circle of friends -readers and newbies, too. On more occasions than I can count, I’ve received terrible stories with requests for feedback. I always ask if they want to know I read it and what part I liked, or if they want a full crit.
I don’t feel as if I can give criticism (despite it always being constructive) unless I have an established rapport with the writer.
If I simply just can’t get a poem, I don’t comment. If I say “lovely,” I truly mean it.
I am wondering how much it matters to people if someone subscribes to their blog. I don’t subscribe to any blogs. I don’t like to get info that way. But I worry it looks like Im not reciprocating.
On the topic of that, I don’t specifically try to reciprocate. I usually read/comment on names I have read and enjoyed before, and then, because Im usually one of the latest, some links toward the end who may get missed. If somebody comments on my work, I do try to visit their site and comment when I have something to say.
you commented to me with just ?????????? which seems pretty pointless and not very problem solve focused or constructive? i guess sometimes it is about getting down to what is useful for someone who is writing?
it is good that you do read the work of others. i think that is the first part of respect in these contexts.
cheers
janet
hi folks. i am one who writes comments that are too short. sometimes not commenting on poems where i am not sure what to say. i do ty to read all of the poems and to say something relevant wherever i can. i will try and be more considered with my comments. many of you do write really good comments. it does help =)
..there are places where only one or two people leave comments..
yes especially late in the list of posts it gets down to a few
there are…i find a lot of times though, those that come later in the list are the least likely to reciprocate….
tricky
happy anniversary Brian
thank you…smiles.
Thank you for your insights and enlightenment. What you have written is certainly thought provoking. I will try to put some of the ideas into practice and hopefully try to be helpful. But sometimes it is a bit of a learning curve.
there are often comments on Anna M’s poems that are about getting the dictionary and looking things up. i think that it is one of the best things about her poetry because it is taking your mind somewhere new and putting new myths, science, language in. that just has to be one of the best things about reading other people’s work is that it helps you grow and see things from another perspective
anna def stretches me in regards to my thinking….and i do need google or a dictionary often…she has a marvelous grasp on some pretty amazing things as far as knowledge and the ability to spin them together…
This is a huge mailbag and I hesitate to strain its stitches any further, but I feel very strongly about the entire commenting process so here goes.
POETRY PROMPTS: PRINCIPLES AND PROTOCOLS?
Why do we post our poems to poetry prompt sites? What do we hope to achieve by sharing our work with others? Are we in search of a devoted reading public who will absorb each of our offerings with uncritical gratitude? Or do we see ourselves as part of a community providing mutual support and encouragement, regardless of the wide variation in style, content and skill presented by its members?
Either option is fair enough: self-promotion and the marketing imperative is as prevalent in poetry as it is in any other area of individual endeavour. But I don’t think that very many of us would own up to being driven such materialistic and self-aggrandising motives. Surely most of us would go for mutual support as our prime incentive. In which case (another question), having posted our latest work, what do we feel to be our further obligation?
Well, surely it’s to begin to provide that mutual support and encouragement. Basic respect at least should start with a grateful acknowledgement of the comments now accumulating in response to the posted poem (whether individually if those comments are under the 15 – 20 mark or collectively if significantly in excess of that). And then surely it’s to visit the blogs of at least some of those who have taken the time and trouble to provide a considered evaluation of our work and to leave some kind of reciprocal response to what we find there.
And by and large that is exactly what the majority of us do. But, surprisingly, a minority of contributors to this and other poetry prompt sites don’t follow these simple protocols. They will post material, garner the comments it provokes and then simply move on to the next prompt and their next offering. Which process, it seems to me, is largely self-serving and not in the spirit of communal support and sharing that characterises the purpose and function of the poetry prompt site.
Summing it all up, I believe that some kind of meaningful reciprocation is at the very least a necessary courtesy of the commenting procedure. And if one takes the longer view of enlightened self-interest, isn’t this exactly the process by which you found your blogging friends – those with whom you now have regular and rewarding contact? I’ve run the Patteran Pages for nearly 10 years now and I have made some very firm friends on the back of mutual support for each other’s blogs. Without the dialogue arising from comment box visits, theirs and mine, those cherished relationships would never have come to pass.
This little essay is not intended as a rant. It’s simply a set of observations arising from personal convictions about what is best about social media – authentic interaction, meaningful communication, mutual support. See you back at dVerse and beyond!
smiles…i like your thoughts…and i thought of you when i was writing this as we have had this conversation before via email (ha my memory is working!) congrats again on the 10 years….that is longevity that many fail to reach….and i agree on the relationships and how they develop through our interaction…when i first started 4.5 years ago ( a young one to you…smiles)…i never would have believed where it would go as regards to the relationships i have developed…
This is such a great conversation going here! I’ve been back a few times to see what others are saying.
I also wanted to point out that some blogs specifically say by the comment section that any – good and constructive- comments are appreciated. For those writers, it seems okay to voice what you are thinking and feeling. For them, this may be what they need to help develop their writing.
good morning poets…i am waking up…in ice….might take a few cups of coffee to catch up…smiles..
The problem is, when visiting the Mr. Linky link, you go right to their poem and don’t spend time reading through the rest of their blog and tabs to see what they feel about comments. That is why a badge right in front of the poem would be good. For instance, a “Let me have it” badge would invite any comments and a “Just tell me you love it” badge would direct you to more appropriate commenting for that person.
So maybe d’Verse poets could put up a commenting policy saying,
Gay Reiser Cannon, a fine pub tender, suggested above that,
Now I think consensus about how to comment would be impossible in such a d’Verse group, but a consensus which agrees to level of criticism badges may be possible.
i think there is something to be said of what you learn about someone when you visit them consistently…it is hard to understand perspectives in one poem that may show patterns over time that are vastly different…its like developing relationships…what you know in the first moment may not be the same 6 months down the road…
badges, while they may make it easy for some is so complicated…and cumbersome to the new person coming in the door…as someone said earlier, the purpose of the public gatherings here is the celebration of poetry, enjoyment…
the thoughts on having a crit group on the back page …i rather like those as it provides a forum that is less public for most…
The comments here have illustrated why most people leave short supportive comments without significant content:
— they want to be supportive but …
— they are busy
— if they don’t understand the poem
— if they don’t enjoy the poem
— they are afraid a substantive comment may be considered a criticism
— they don’t want to be judged as a critical person
— they want to be liked
— they want to be read too, hoping others return to their poem
We are all so different in what we value, eh?
In philosophy blogs, these are not the thoughts of commentors. ‘Tis interesting the different predominant cultures of different blog types.
I am fortunate to have found some very fine commentors on my writing from the d’Verse Poets community — folks with great writing skills and folks thoughtful comments who are willing to discuss. I am fortunate.
Me-Too Commenting
One of my pet peeves are when people pic one line from the poem to comment but ignore what the point of the poem is. For example, I may use a poem using my dogs to illustrate a psychological trait and people will say: “I got dogs too.” “Dogs are funny, aren’t they?”
Or if I use a train trip as a metaphor, they will simple say, “I’ve been on train trip too and loved it.
It strikes me like normal conversations where people are not listening but just waiting for an inhale to draw the conversation back to themselves.
I read above that people would rather have 20 vacuous compliments than none. I think that is largely the consensus — I’d rather have none, than vacuous ones. I try to write in order to communicate and I try (though poorly, and I will try to improved) to communicate in my comments.
Hints I got from other folks here: I think some of the bad commenting I have done is when, after working and working to understand a poem but still not getting it, I feel compelled to write a comment and blurt out something showing my frustration with the writers work. I have been skipping these poems and I will (from everyone’s advice) skip more in the future. I did want to tell the writer that I tried, and felt sharing that I tried but did not understand would be helpful. But apparently that is totally disliked. So since I would rather not leave vacuous comments (which many feel is the better option), I will skip and move on.
I try to return to comments by folks that visit my poems and then feel compelled to make a comment there too — maybe I should skip those if I feel frustrated with their writing too.
As for me, I appreciate if folks tell me they are frustrated and why. I enjoy the communication. And I often use e-mail to discuss with folks and let them know I replied to their comment since poetry bloggers rarely follow comments.
Many poets have confessed that they are not writing for their readers but for themselves. I continue to find this very puzzling. If you are writing for yourself, why not keep it on your hard drived, why put it out in public with your comment section turned-on?
Lots of great stuff to digest here… I’ve really enjoyed this discussion. It definitely has me revisiting my commenting methods. I always like knowing you stopped by, which is why I always try to leave some kind of comment… but I guess I shouldn’t comment if I have nothing to say? Is it better to do that then just say I enjoyed the poem? I write that a lot b/c it’s true. I love reading poetry. I don’t feel qualified to critique, plus I am very quiet. If I were to have a face-to-face conversation with you, I would be the one listening more than talking (most of the people I know consider me a good listener, someone they can trust not to gossip). I just can’t find the right words sometimes. I will try my best, though, to be a better commenter.
it is an interesting conversation…and i don’t think it means you don’t comment…i think listening is a key skill many miss out on…too busy thinking of the next thing they will say…if i read, i do try to leave a comment and make it thoughtful as i can…i like what someone said above about setting aside our personal preferences as far as verse goes and appreciating it for what it is…
I like that, too.
Actually, as I wrote above, many of the comments are not ‘criticisms’ but just feedback on impressions. But anything short of a nice compliment is often labeled a ‘criticism’ — thus probably a source of folks being afraid to say much of anything of real interst.
Wow, a lot of great comments here! I would like to pitch in my two cents and say that I believe the vast majority of the poets that participate in this wonderful thing we call dVerse are considerate and genuine (and good poets:). There is of course the rare “jerk” that slips in and spews some negativity, but I think (and hope) that this is the exception to the rule. I also feel that there is an unwritten rule here that says if a poet wants constructive criticism, then they need to state that on their blog…something like “feel free to give constructive criticism on my poems” and then those giving it should do it thoughtfully. The other part of that unwritten rule says that unless a poet asks for it, don’t give it..or if you can’t say something nice, say nothing at all. Now I’ve gone on to long…. have a great day everyone.
This commenting question [how and when] is of course not exclusive to poetry bloggers, but somehow we are more emotional than nonfiction bloggers and take it all more personally.
A non-fiction post expects comments on content rather than style. I feel that is what I receive when my style isn’t up to snuff. It always bothers me a bit, but it is unavoidable and I prefer it over a silent visit.
It is disconcerting to see that one has had 90 visits and only 10 spoke. Leaves one puzzled, thinking ‘Was it that bad?’
I don’t mind the ‘Liked that’ comments. At least I know there was a person there. But the other end of the scale: the wonderfully astute, perceptive as well as kind commenters: I want to give them a gold star.
Can’t do that of course, or the others will be hurt.
I came across a comment [ before this discussion here] where Tony put in a suggestion about the poem in question. It was a good point, delicately made, and the person in question didn’t mind a bit. I was so happy to see it that it made me smile.
I have wanted to do that and receive one for a long time now. Hope it catches on.
Well, time is a factor for me, running around work, home and a three year old! I started blogging recently and well do look fwd to be read. But then a lot in this blogosphere depends on inteaction. I cannot expect someone to read all the 100 links posted and typically we do end up picking those written by ones who arr known to be good! For now, for me, I write for the love of it and alongwith comments I take the viewership too nd see if I can improve. Same applies to reading too, if I don’t understand I read it again…
I meant to get over here yesterday to comment… I think you have pretty much covered most of it. Some weeks I have more time than other, and this influences how in-depth my comments are, and how many poems I can read, but I always try to find something of value…
I try to go with an overall impression, what I felt or saw when I read the poem. I am not so concerned with form, although I am often impressed by how others use it.
This is a great discussion, I hope to get back here to read through more of the comments!
I was just across at Bjorn Rudberg’s blog http://brudberg.wordpress.com/ and there I found a list of posts that Bjorn has hit the like button for recently. It seems to me that getting a like from Bjorn actually means something – it means he is publicising your poem on his blog, which I would think makes him a bit more choosy about which poems he ‘likes.’
the best comments are those that tell me what works and what doesn’t. I like suggestions regarding cadence, diction, form, clarity, incisiveness. Although I am happy when people simple “like” a piece, I am thrilled when others comment on the workings, devices, construction…
Leaving good comments is difficult, especially if you ‘re not a poetry/writing expert. If I ‘like’ or even make a simple comment it means I really have read and enjoyed even if I can’t find the best way of saying so.
trust me, i am no expert either…smiles…thats why for me the simple things i mention above give me a framework for leaving a comment…