Tags
burroughs, charles miller, cut it up, dadaism, Form, kerouac, scissors, tristan tzara
Tristan Tzara created quite a stir when in a public event he created an automatic poem. Tonight we will discuss form without form, perhaps creating a further stir.
Hi, welcome to form for all. I am Charles Miller. It’s a bit ironic that I’m hosting tonight, since I have never been one to talk about form or use form in my poetry. However, I’ll use the opportunity afforded me to explore what form is.
In many ways, the techniques used by the Dadaists, foremost proponent of whom was Tzara, take us back to the origins of why poetic form itself exists, why it might be necessary to ask that question or not, and even what a poem is.
As a sidenote, this topic comes at an interesting time. I’ve been thinking about it since being asked to host the form, and then at a poetry group that I participate in, a fellow poet described the very technique that I’m going to describe tonight. Needless to say, I found it very synchrenistic, and perhaps that in and of itself is a good omen.
Tzara scandalized everyone in one public performance by pulling words out of a hat and arranging them into a “poem”. Obviously this outraged many whose idea of poetry assumes that it follows certain patterns that must be adhered to.
Tzara’s “method” would seem to be nothing more than a parlor trick to outrage the French bourgeoisie. However, in various forms, it caught on in various shapes throughout the years. The French surrealists adopted aspects of it, most notably the idea of spontaneity. That idea later became a method for the Beats, such as Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg.
Another Beat writer, William S Burroughs, refined and extended Tzara’s method. He would take large typewritten sheets, cut them into halves or eighths and then rearrange them to form new sentences and word blocks. He called this the “cut – up” method.
For today, I’d like you to use one of these methods to create a poem. That is, cut up some text – it doesn’t matter what text – put them into a container, pull them out and arrange them into a poetic form. Or you can take full pages and rearrange the parts and form a poem that way.
Welcome to the avant-garde, again. I hope it’s an enjoyable ride for you.
brian miller said:
ha this was fun charles…great to see you back behind the bar again as well my brother from another mother….i went cut up…and tried to stick as close as i could to it…the sound poetry came out of this movement as well…and is what i wanted to try…but i will give that another day…smiles.
claudia said:
i think this is a very cool exercise charles – and it def. produces surprising results or you tackle topics you wouldn’t usually maybe.
was searching the internet a bit and – what a coincidence – i will go to a max ernst exhibit soon and found in my research that he was the founder of a dada group in cologne…funny world… now really looking forward to see his paintings..
brian miller said:
that is pretty cool…enjoyed researching this a bit…esp the poetic and verse side…i like a bit of random nonsense as well…
Björn Rudberg (brudberg) said:
Hi, For once I’m at work when dVerse opens. Currently in meeting… A very fun and challenging way to do poetry… 🙂 I will be around later to check in all the entry. Greetings from New Jersey
brian miller said:
ha. you feel my pain a bit…smiles…means you get to hang out later though…we can share a booth…smiles.
claudia said:
hope the jet lag isn’t too bad
Mary said:
Bjorn, what do you think of New Jersey? (Smiles)
Björn Rudberg (brudberg) said:
I love to be jet-lagged.. going home again tonight… so a very brief visit. I decided to try to skip adopting… going to bed very early and going up at 4 am… almost normal sleep for me… 🙂 I loved all the poetry being created with this process… and next time I have a writers block I know what to do.
I actually wrote a piece first, but decided to do a second. But I didn’t want two on mr Linky
http://brudberg.wordpress.com/2013/06/06/rabbit-trouble/
Cheers Björn
Heaven (@asweetlust) said:
Thank you for an interesting process Charles ~ The parlour trick is not so easy as it looks as sometimes the words don’t really make sense ~ I guess it depends where you pull out the words from, and how you want to play it around your head ~ Nevertheless, I enjoyed this ~
Wishing you and everyone, happy Thursday ~
Grace
claudia said:
when i did the research one of the things they said was that the product wasn’t important for the hardcore dadaists… for me it was difficult to let go totally…somehow the product is important for me…maybe i’m just a bit old-fashioned..smiles
aprille said:
So agree with you there Claudia: the product has to be something that you would want to look at again some day.
aprille said:
Wantedto say: Thank you Charles. I had fun with this today.
claudia said:
sometimes i think that it is important to let go though and have movements like this.. if they hadn’t been brave enough, maybe the surrealism and abstract art were never born.. think it often is important to bring the scale totally out of balance to give it a chance to find a completely new balance as well… if this makes sense…still pondering….ha…. i find this all more and more fascinating..
brian miller said:
one of the biggest things in this for me…is art has only the meaning we give it…i think it is pretty freeing…
i could not go full in….but pulling 5 words out of a hat and arranging them into a semi coherent line…was def enough taste for me…ha
Mary said:
I struggled a bit to know what to do with this challenge, Grace, as I like to write poems that have meaning. Perhaps I need to free myself a bit from wanting meaning. I don’t know.
Heaven (@asweetlust) said:
I understand Mary ~ The first time I did this, the words were not making sense at all, at least for me ~ I guess it’s all about control and like Claudia, I care about the product too ~ So what I did is to take some words only and mixed it up with mine ~
claudia said:
ok…bedtime for me.. will cut up a good night song and sing it to my husband…ha.. smiles.. will check back in tomorrow morning to see what the overnites brought to the table… see you then
Susan said:
Well, here it is, and I only cheated a little. A dadaist would work harder to make no sense. Such defiance! No neat little walls around things. I have a different kind of rebellion–or maybe I have just become sentimental.
brian miller said:
ha, you have me intrigued….
punnypalaver said:
I enjoyed reading these, but am not pleased with my final product. Perhaps I’ll try again later.
brian miller said:
it takes some letting go…and realizing that its not going to make complete sense…i think that is rather the point of the movement…it can give a feel though of the original…or a different perception of it…
punnypalaver said:
That is exactly what I admired in yours and others, but couldn’t do in mine. I’m a craft-er. I’ll definitely try again.
punnypalaver said:
OK–I’ve tried again–can my first link be deleted?
Mary said:
Punypalaver, don’t feel alone. This definitely was hard.
punnypalaver said:
Thanks, Mary. When I read it, I thought oh this will fun and I can do this before getting supper ready. It may take me years to really “do” this. 🙂
henna ink said:
All I can manage IS letting go … in poetry, anyway. I can’t keep a grip on anything. I’m probably quite the opposite of all the real poets out here. I’m too silly. 🙂
punnypalaver said:
You are the real thing, Shawna. And you are a master of this form!
henna ink said:
I’m reading up on it now, and it’s fascinating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dada
And thanks. 😉
henna ink said:
I just posted this … all the most interesting stuff I found on dadaism:
http://fadinghennaink.wordpress.com/2013/06/06/dadaism/
brian miller said:
cool, so are you going to jump in shawna?
henna ink said:
Almost finished. It’s pretty much kick ass. 😉
henna ink said:
Done!
brian miller said:
would expect nothing less from you…smiles.
Caleb Moss said:
Hello everyone, its Caleb Moss. I just finished creating, and posting my own dadist poem into the open mic selection. Basically, I tore out pages from the I Ching, and an interview from a Game Informer article, and I fragmented and rearranged the text until I created this strange piece of poetry. I hope everyone enjoys it (: And thank you again Charles, for informing me about this site from Tumblr.
brian miller said:
ha cool mix with iching and game informer…
some interesting contrasts…the strength in weakness to start…but judgement denoting tranquility…like the i am the guy line as it breaks it nicely for me…
Caleb Moss said:
Thanks man. I thought it would of been an interesting postmodern twist on the cut-up technique to take a piece of archaic spiritual philosophy, and mix it with a publication interested in rampant consumerism.
Björn Rudberg (brudberg) said:
Caleb, I really need to learn to make comment on tumblr… if someone knows please let me know 🙂
Caleb Moss said:
I think usually to comment upon posts on tumblr, you reblog said post, and you add a comment by putting text when reblogging.
Snakypoet (Rosemary Nissen-Wade) said:
Hi Caleb. I tried to join tumblr in order to comment on your poem but it seemed awfully difficult and I don’t really want another blog platform anyway. So will just say here that I think it’s a brilliant idea to turn to the I Ching, and you inspire me to think of using it some time not for cut-ups but found poems. I like what you did with your two texts. (Mind you, I am so reverential towards books that I can’t help but be shocked that you TORE PAGES OUT! OMG!)
Caleb Moss said:
Well, lets just say that I’m a bit more… Irreverent when it comes to texts, especially when my focus is on artistic inspiration and deconstructive context.
And I’m appreciative that you enjoyed the resulting product I made; even more so jovial that it inspired you towards your own poetic endeavors, which if anything, is anything an artist could ever ask for.
brian miller said:
popping out for a bit…we are in the middle of the tropical storm rains right now…and its coming down pretty good all day…might need to divert some water…but will be back after that and dinner….
Mary said:
Stay safe, Brian. This definitely has been an unusual spring. Tornados, excessive rain, etc. Seems that every area of the US anyway has its weather issues. We had 55 degrees and rain today. Awful spring here….
Heaven (@asweetlust) said:
Stay safe Brian ~ I agree with you Mary, it has been a very cold spring ~ Right now, it’s cloudy but Sunday is looking warm and sunny 🙂
hypercryptical said:
What a wonderful prompt Charles of a form I was unaware of until now. Cut-up words are so fiddly to work with – but much fun nevertheless.
Cheers!
Anna :o]
henna ink said:
Oh man, I could do this all day long. 🙂
brian miller said:
bring it…
Glenn Buttkus said:
As I understand it, making no senses, accepting non-realistic nonsense is the cornerstone of DaDa, post WWI, in all phases of Art. Non-sequiturs seems to bubble out of me naturally, so I looked up some old word lists I had randomly compiled from old novels, magazines, and newspapers, and then I returned to some several year old random notes I had made regarding some of my photographic images; up to 30,000 now; bless the digital world. So my path was non-linear & random.
Kelvin S.M. said:
..oh, my comment disappeared… i thought i left a comment earlier before i took my bath… anyhow… i think this was really challenging & difficult especially if you’re doing this for the first time… i struggle as well in digging sense for my attempt as for me. you can’t just force words go together to create something… at first assessment. dadaists poetry are like erasure poetry but i would say between the two i find the former easier to execute than the latter since in dadaist poem you have the freedom to arrange words randomly picked unlike in erasure poem where you placed words by order of selection… overall i had fun doing this or at least for the sake of dverse… so thanks Charles for bringing this up… smiles…
henna ink said:
If we write more than one, should we link them? Or just the first one?
Heaven (@asweetlust) said:
You can write/link as many as you like 🙂
Grace
brian miller said:
yep OLN is the only place we limit people to one because it gets so busy…for poetics or form or MTB…you can link more than one…you are good…be over in minute shawna…
festivalking said:
Thanks for the Prompt! 🙂
ManicDdaily said:
Hey Charles – Claudia – Brian -I’ve got something up and I did use scissors, but I started with a really great text–I don’t know if that is cheating. It’s what came to mind to me to use – and though I did cut all the words out – they are such strong words that they ended up echoing things about the original text. Still, it is a very fun exercise.
I am not so down on Dadaists – but I found Burrough’s straight narratives, like Junkie – a very straight novel about addiction – to be much more interesting than some of the cut-up ones like Naked Lunch. I found that those were cool in snatches – in the same way that they were written, but that (for me) it was hard to read straight through. I needed the narrative to sustain me. Anyway, all interesting. k.
brian miller said:
alright, gotta go finish studying for my teacher exam on saturday…and get some sleep….see you in the morning for some more fun…smiles.
M. J. Joachim said:
I’m sure having a grand time reading some of these tonight. The cut up pieces are so creative!
Snakypoet (Rosemary Nissen-Wade) said:
I’ve been home with a cold today, instead of having my usual frantic Friday, so I could tackle this – and it took me nearly all day to do it! It was fun. I have done this kind of thing before and always enjoy it. I prefer the metod of blacking out all but the words one wants to use, so I did that with page 1 of nytext, but it didn’t seem very Dada, so then I did the actual cutup with page 2 of my text. So you get two for one this time! 🙂
Misky said:
I love cut-out poetry, so thank you for this fun prompt.
brian miller said:
it was a lot of fun misky….happy friday all…
will check in throughout the day and see who joins the fun….
David King said:
So different, like taking a holiday from the real work. Much fun. Thanks.
claudia said:
haha…now that puts it nicely.. it’s a bit like free fall…smiles
Snakypoet (Rosemary Nissen-Wade) said:
Very glad to learn, from the conversations above, that I can have two bites at the cherry. Loving the results of the Dada poem generator to which Aprille directed us, I applied it not to my original texts but to the two poems I first created from that text. Now that’s the real Dada! LOL
Nessa said:
I gave it a shot. It was fun. Thanks for the idea.
brian miller said:
woot. nessa in the house!
Leonardo I. Graves said:
What is striking about the approaches taken by Crumbley and Smith is their alertness to the opacity and ambiguity of Dickinson’s work, and their sense that its ‘fiery mist’ might be essential to its beauty. They also, in different ways, draw attention to the illimitable circumference of its meaning, and do not attempt to impose a contextual ‘circumference’ of their own. Indeed, their historicizing expands the possibilities of the Dickinson text, making way for its uncanny energies. The same might be said of Robert Weisbuch’s superb essay, ‘Prisming Dickinson’, to which I referred earlier in this review. Perhaps more than any other critic in the Handbook, Weisbuch makes it clear that not only does civilization spurn the leopard; the leopard also – more powerfully – spurns civilization (including here the ‘civilizing’ forces of Theory). Beginning with the assumption that ‘each memorable poet teaches you a new way of thinking’ (p. 197), Weisbuch goes on to eschew all conventional critical approaches to Dickinson’s work, arguing that they tend either to seek out one privileged meaning (the metaphysical ‘truth’), or attempt to impose one reductive reading of their own (the ‘feminist’ Emily, the ‘religious’ Emily, the ‘lesbian’ Emily, and so on). But ‘no poet ever so fiercely resisted such confinement’ (p. 198); and ‘to expect settled truth from Dickinson is to wish for a contradiction in terms’ (p. 219). In place of such acts of critical enclosure, Weisbuch – through exemplary close reading of three of her poems – proposes that we should never look for any one scene or subject in Dickinson’s oeuvre. In fact, the circumference of her best work is infinite. We must therefore ‘resist pointing or pinning down a poetry which depends upon expansible meaning’ (p. 205).