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family discussion, hey why are the lights off?, just in time for the holidays, whew catching my breath
Welcome to dVerse.
There is a certain warmth that comes with being greeted as you come in the door. I think we have said that a couple hundred times since we opened the doors two and a half years ago.
We have also talked about how we hoped to build a community of poets that cared for each other. A warm place of being where we could grow together.
Here in a few weeks we will be doing something we have never done before—closing the doors.
From December 15th to January 5th, we will not be running prompts or OpenLinkNight or Pretzels.
There are two reasons for the closure.
First, it will allow our pub tenders to enjoy the holiday season with their family and not feel the pressure of having to post, host or comment. Several pub tenders have family they are caring for & as with most of us, life just happens and it seems to be doing that a lot.
Second, it will allow the pub tenders to continue a conversation we have been having behind the scenes on possible changes here at dVerse. One of the main challenges in building a place such as dVerse is the development of that community who care for one another.
One of the things that we have been discussing is how we deal with those that take but do not give back to the community, those that link in and never read anyone else. These poets become a drain on the community we are trying to create.
The main event where this happens is OpenLinkNight, which is to be expected considering it is open to anyone, unprompted and all it takes is someone dropping a link. We have discussed structure changes, setting people that link but don’t visit to spam so they can not post here any longer or continuing to ignore their links, among other possible solutions.
In the past, I have tried to ask them through comments about why they dont comment, but people are not really fond of being confronted it.
We have also talked about opening up a back room for critique, which would be invitation only, for those that are actively supporting the community aspect of the front room.
We have also admitted that maybe we just all need a break to regain some energy and motivation to move forward.
So, now you are in on the conversations. We would like you to be a part of them as well, so any thoughts you have—leave them in the comments below.
We have 2 weeks until the break, so let’s enjoy it. We have OpenLinkNight tomorrow night, back here at 3 pm EST.
See you out on the trail. ~Brian
dVerse 
Great to get this out of the closet…
I am personally looking to grow. This is why I started to blog just a bit over a month ago. I have not participated yet but desire to…if doors are open 🙂
What dVerse does for and gives to the community is so tremendous, I am glad you are going to take some time for yourselves. Take care of yourselves first so that you are able to enjoy the time you give to us. Remember the airplane admonition? You get the oxygen before anyone else. have a wonderful two weeks off. I know I’ll miss you in my inbox but enjoy you all the more when you reappear. Have a wonderful holiday pub tenders.
smiles… thanks margo… and i like your nod to the airplane admonition as well… will remember this on my next flight… it’s wise….
It’s really a good thought. I have always wondered what immense pressure you guys must go through in hosting such wonderful social events, encourage everyone – I must admit that it has changed me ever since I started following. I think everyone deserves some rest in the festive season.
Happy holidays Brian. Have a great time with family.
thanks abhra… this is why we started this… we really want to encourage poets and it’s good to hear that it made a difference for you…
Thanks Claudia – yes you surely have helped me to write better with time. Last year my daughter was born and I was bit away from all the writing and now I am slowly returning to more writing and notice that I am able to do much better. Thanks to dversepoets, I have always got some inspirations.
It sure has… dverse and going back to one shot as well has brightened up the online poetry community! and also opens doors for us too…
All that sounds really good to me, I have been finding it hard to participate fully at times, so I can only imagine how you all feel! It’s a busy time of the year.
I always feel a little guilty just dropping a link and then not reading other’s poems, so I try very hard to make sure I read as many poems that I can, but again, lately its been hard to do that. The community aspect of this is so crucial, so I support taking the kinds of steps you mentioned to keep it at bay.
I love the idea of a back room for critique, and having that invitation extended to those whom participate by the rules is a great idea!
I have a suggestion, I was thinking that perhaps you could make a link for each pub tender’s column on the menu, so that we can easily access them when we want to go back and learn about, say rondeaus, or the beat poets, or a prompt that we didn’t have time to use but really liked. Word Press makes it easy to do that with menus … I know those links are at the bottom of the sidebar, but it would be much easier if they were all at the top. That way, also, newcomers could browse around a lot easier and see what a great community this is.
Thanks for being here and hope you enjoy the break!
i hear you… life can be a beast and it’s tough to find the time to comment and read but i think if we link up in a prompt, it’s just fair to visit some of the others as well… it’s a giving and taking… re your suggestion… we have an archive in the side bar where you find all the different categories… so if you look for the form prompts you find them all under FormForAll – we thought that’s easier than connecting them to specific people
i see what you are saying…it kinda gets lost at the bottom of the sidebar…hmm….will think on that….
If you want to catch up on some older prompts I recommend the Mix and Match prompt Tony ran at the 2 year’s celebration.. I have used it myself…
https://dversepoets.com/2013/07/18/mix-and-match/
I have it bookmarked.
Thanks Bjorn! I bookmarked it too.
Thank you for this Bjorn Sir!
This is a tough call for any one/group/community, and your concerns are valid. I’m still a newbie here and have not found my footing yet, but I am trying what I can when an anxiety attack does not plague me, not sure if that is the same for others who do not read and/or leave comments, but it could be something to be mindful about…
Also, (you probably have already discussed this amongst yourselves), it may be a good idea to decide what it is you want dVerse to stand for, and from there decide if it’ll be an open or closed community…just my two cents…
And everyone needs a holiday, I know I find all this overwhelming sometimes and need to step away and recharge frequently. x
i think we are def set on it being an open community…its great we have new people and for them there is def grace in them finding their legs…as i replied to anthony, the only closed aspect we are considering is the crit groups…this allows some sense of safety and security…and rewards those that are activiely building community.
That makes perfect sense, something like that would be a valuable addition to your loyal contributors. Whatever you do, I believe it will be the best for the community overall, so go for it. 🙂
def. there are things that hinder people in their commenting – sometimes an illness or unexpected things that happen and of course that is something to be mindful about… but then on the other hand i don’t think that is the case every week… so…
i think the foundation of the pub was from the beginning that it should be an open and open-minded community… that’s the heart of it… i don’t think we wanna change this but maybe we’re doing some work on the wall painting or moving the tables and chairs around… smiles
I love the vibe here. There will always be people who do not follow guidelines. I hope to participate more in the New Year-I am finding the whole blogging gamut difficult-these past few months. My husband retired from the military-and we both are dealing with a learning curve. I am still trying to maintain balance on my new tight rope. My apologizes if I didn’t bring it~ I def love this place-everyone has such a peaceful vibe-I find it refreshing, calm and kind here. I hope to be more active next year~ Claudia I love redecorating-something to consider I guess…
balance is huge…and def important….when our ‘real’ life is out of balance it def impacts the writing side…you are good people too ella…smiles.
I hear you, I personally would not be linking up if I was having an anxiety attack and knew it would be too much for me, hence why some weeks I’ve not popped by, only when and where I can manage I have done so…but you are right, it does sound like there are those who just link up for the sake of getting traffic to their blog and not participating in with the community, and that is really sad to hear…maybe make a note of those bloggers and remove their links if they continue to link up?
I shall look forward to the changes where I can. x
O, Brian et al. I know I cannot read and comment on all those who come here for the great reading and commenting. The caliber is very high in your company, the caliber of the prompts and the discussion. I have been enjoying these Monday conversations which I think is the latest development, one that doesn’t involve dropping off a poem or a link. It sounds like the 3 week hiatus is needed by dVerse to talk and vacation and for us all to consider how you enhance our lives. Nothing will replace you. Comeback refreshed and daring! Happy holidays.
i like the discussions as well…it allows us to converse and talk about things important to the community…but also to poetry too…and just relax and not feel we have to write…
and its not that we want people to read everyone…trust me, it will wear you out…i think one of the things we talked about is if everyone commited to just 2 or 3 and then returned comments to others. it would be a huge step for many…
Reciprocity builds trust & fellowship & affection. My God, I have always been amazed at how much iron man Brian pushes himself to got out & read & leave comments, some of them quite lengthy, on at least 3 dozen of the linked poems; plus I bump into him all over Poetry Jam and the Mag Tales & G-Man’ s blog; how the hell he & Claudia do it consistently week in & out, even while traveling or on vacation is above & beyond all concepts of obligation–they just work off of heart power, I guess.
dVerse has been absolutely the best thing to happen to me in the last several years. My wife laughs at me if I cannot meet my minimal quota of visiting & commenting on 12 poet’s sites. But haven’t the silent poets noticed that invariably, after you leave a comment, that very poet, both in gratitude & curiosity, visits their site in return. I feel the need for truth in reciprocity so much, that when I miss a link up date, or link & run, I let folks know on FB or Twitter why I’m absent. Running with the dVerse gang, we get to feeling like a family of friends; even though few of us have ever met in the flesh.
oh of course, it is a lot to try to comment on EVERYONE (seems like brian does tho lol.) the drain is from those who don’t comment on anybody’s poems… I love that more and more come here, downside is it seems less and less interact.
Yes, happy holidays and I do think it wise to take a break. There are so many celebrations, commitments and surprises over the holidays-I think it is a wise decision.
Happy holidays Brian… Glad you guys are taking a break… I like the idea of setting links of people who don’t return as spam… this is a tough decision for y’all tho… you don’t wanna shut the community down to just invites, etc… but oln being so open leaves a lot of room for laziness and the gimmes gimmes… whatever you guys decide
on, I back it! enjoy the off time and thanks for all you guys do for poetry.
thanks bro…the invite only would be to the back room crit group…i know that a lot of people want it…and i think it is valuable…but if someone is not willing to support others in the front room, we def would not let them come in to the crit side of things….
its been an interesting discussion so far among the pub tenders…and we have gone here and back again in our thoughts and feelings on a lot of things…that kinda stuff is needed though for growth….
oh ok, I understand… and yes this is needed! will be a good step forward for Dverse
Glad that you are having a break. I think what all of you do is amazing; I’m looking forward to reading and posting more, now that I’ve survived my PhD annual review. Please let me know if you’d like a volunteer; I could offer a couple of hours a month as host/etc, if that’s of any use? I noticed that you’ve mentioned folks are having to care for loved ones- my day job is working as a speech and language therapist with people with dementia/etc., so am happy to support and advise, if that’s of any use?
ah very cool…and thanks for the offer mary…both in volunteering your time…and your counsel as well…will def get back to you on that….and woot…congrats on the PHD review…grad school is enough for me right now…smiles.
Oh I can certainly sympatize with a PhD review… reading and commenting is at least what have made me grow as a poet… Trying to capture the thought in the poem, or that particular phrase that I like… after all, it’s a rare privilege to have anyone read your poetry… and here in Stockholm we don’t have any poetry readings in English… or anything similar…
Actually we have a nice representation from poets across the pond; it really thrills me to have those international connections. I do agree, Bjorn, the comments & the prompts have taken me to school, and nurtured a lot of growth in my work.
Agreed…
The question is if you want to be a poetry community or if you want to be a social club, open to members only. Today the site functions as a social club open to everyone. It is not a poetry community. I say so, because there is no consideration of form, and comments made are not critiques but pleasings. They cannot be critiques as long as there is no consideration of form. If you will brush up the sign telling this is a poetry community you must acknowledge there are good and bad poets and also masters, existing high above anyone else. That is what geniuses do.
Anders, perhaps you have not been here very long? Form is regularly addressed. That is one of the things I most enjoy about dVerse. As a workshop leader and poetry editor of many years’ standing, I think critiquing is most useful when it addresses issues of craft (including form when applicable, but not restricted to that). We all have our standards of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ poetry, and generally agree on who the masters and geniuses are, but I don’t think labelling is useful in this context. Rather, I think it is helpful to look at what works and what doesn’t in a particular piece. I also find that in poetry people learn by doing; you see their improvement over time — so it is important not to be so critical that someone gives up and stops writing.
solid response rosemary…
i agree.
You state, Rosemary, “we all have our standards of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ poetry”. Which means there is no standard. Which means there cannot be any critique. Which means comments must be pleasings. Which means the site becomes a social club.
If you think this is a social club and not a poetry community maybe dverse isn’t right for you… great response Rosemary…
I agree with Anthony, but I don’t want to be too harsh. As a free-verse writer, I don’t consider my poetry to be “less then” a sonnet. It’s simply a diverse (!) form of expression… Reading the poets at dverse has definitely helped me become a better poet, and even learn a few forms!
Kind of harsh, Anders; tough love may be indicated, but one of the real strengths of dVerse Pub has been the blending of socialization & instruction. Of course there is the full spectrum of expertise represented by all the brave poets who participate; but Brian & Claudia find clever & kind ways of steering beginners, or old timers, back on course. How much more specific could a poetry prompt be beyond the marvelous Form for All & Meeting the Bar challenges? So it does not seem that many of us are too much into back patting, or mindless prattle. The whole process is a tight wire act, & I respect the balance of love & learning that is promulgated here.
ditto rosemary and glenn for me
the openness of expressive critique, is unique on dVerse, and one of its several strengths
from moment’s of tentative general comment that nevertheless touches the responder’s feelings and encourages empathy, to detailed shaded examples of nuances in sound and words, it’s all a process and continuum – and lordy, there are days i straddle either end and don’t even know why 😉
Just because folk are uncomfortable doesn’t mean the issue of non-commenting shouldn’t be raised. However I must say the issue of a closed door back room crit group seems a bit divisive…I’ve always found it easier to give crit and valid support in the course of normal commenting…
i hear you…we’ve had conversations on crit….and i think in a public forum it is harder for many people to accept crit, but also to give it…we had tried it publicly when we first opened and as much as people enjoyed getting a thorough crit they were reluctant to give it…we also had people busting down the door to get it…
having it in a back room allows control of who comes in that door and out…i can def see it leading to hurt feelings, so that is def something we have to consider…if we do it though, i think the expectation will be that they are supporting the front room as i said in the comment back to anthony….
Oh, I love this place. I’m still very new here and I don’t know exactly who or how many are involved in the upkeep, but I have to thank you all. This is a great website, and an amazing community of poets! I’m so happy to be a small part of it.
I wish you all a wonderful holiday~
smiles. hopefully we all stay a little new here…one of the beautiful parts of the pub or a pub is that people come in when they can…one of the things we have been talking about is how you never know who might be here each week….glad you are a part of it as well..
Unfortunately, there are always social loafers in any kind of society, but I vehemently believe that dverse has been doing an immense service to the poetry community regardless of these types. In fact when I read the words “closing the doors” my heart beat hard and I took in such a loud gulp of breath that my boyfriend heard me from another room and came to see what the matter was. Of course, I had by then read the Christmas closing period information and was content to see that you guys are practicing healthy self-care by taking time for yourselves (good on you and well deserved). I really appreciate the mix of quality poetry with the social concern shown here, and I think it is fine for someone to share their work and get general encouragement, but of course it can be a much greater learning experience to receive serious critique. My one suggestion would be for contributors to actually flag in the comments what aspects of their poems they would like critiquing (perhaps a list of potential questions can be collated for people to use to indicate what they would like people to comment on) then as people see each other being critiqued it may encourage those who have less confidence to also seek critique. I know I haven’t been contributing long, but I can wholeheartedly say I love you guys, and change can be good, but I’d like to see the warm heartedness maintained. With love to you all, Rowan.
oh my heart beat a bit hard when i first tossed the idea out to claudia the other week…it just feels weird closing the doors, even if for just a few weeks…it is self care…i know for me in particular, i need to find my own encouragement a bit after running these communities the last 4 years and giving…my tank was running low, so that is what i will be doing during the break…
thank you for the encouragement in your comment as well…i truly do enjoy what we do here most of the times…smiles…its the people that make it for me more than anything….
Do what you got to do, Brian. You, of all people, deserve some TLC. Seriously, I think your desire to encourage others is one of the most amazing things I’ve seen in the world of blogging.
Hear hear. Brian is a constant, thoughtful reader/commenter and I for one am glad to ‘know’ him.
I totally can understand how sometimes you have to step back and regroup. I’m glad you all will give yourselves some time off during the holidays–volunteer work is still work, however much you love it. I’m a lot less active here or anywhere than I once was, as I find it very difficult to respond to more than a certain number of visits, comments, and poems before I just flake out and words no longer have meaning. GAH! ;_) You all deserve a lot of pats on the back, and hugs, for all the work you’ve done here, and all the poets you encourage and support.
haha. smiles. yes, i agree…you used to keep me pretty sane with emails during OLN behind the scenes…lol….it will be a good break…i will still be writing, but i dont plan on linking in much of anywhere and just interacting with those that want to come by and all…you know…
I am really with you on this. I love this place and hope you evolve it how you wish. You have lots of experience and lots of talent and your dedication is mind blowing. With love and light… tigrbrite
thank you sir. smiles.
I’m sure you all do need a break this time of year, and well earned!
The main reason I seldom post in OpenLinkNight is that I seldom have time to visit so many other blogs promptly — even if I were to do only half, it’s still a mammoth task. Obviously it’s popular, and this suggestion is radical, but I wonder if OpenLinkNight is needed? Well, that’s just me — I love FormForAll, Poetics and Meeting the Bar. I also think the PubNight discussions are good but I seldom have time to participate.
How about an open Critique opportunity, where people may submit for more in-depth feedback than usually happens in comments — rather than a back room by invitation only?
I don’t know what you do about those who don’t play fair. Ban them? I suppose relegating them to Spam would have that effect. I think you would need to allow at least a week for people to comment on other posts (I say this because it sometimes takes me that long to get around to very many) and also maybe adopt the ‘three strikes and you’re out’ rule, meaning they would have to refrain from comment on three different occasions before you took action. This seems like a lot of monitoring, i.e. extra work. Is it worth it?
Also it goes against the grain a bit. What are we, a schoolroom, handing out rewards and punishments? We can all make up our own minds whom we’ll visit, based on any criteria we choose. Many will probably not keep visiting those who don’t return the compliment. Personally it doesn’t bother me that much; I would visit anyway if there was good poetry to read. My decision to seldom use OpenLinkNight is because of concern about me not doing the right thing by others — not about them ignoring me. But anyway, I think we are all adults who can make these choices for ourselves. I think you can continue to encourage people to visit other blogs, and leave it at that.
Poets are all about freedom, aren’t they? I’d like to think so.
its funny you say that as we have had discussions on shutting down OLN…
and i have been on both sides of the argument at times…
OLN is our open door…it is where most new visitors join in because it is free form
(of course this can be a detriment as well)…but we also have a crowd of those that are committed to the community and visiting others on tuesday that dont come back for poetics or form or mtb…
we have had open crit…and the reality is people love to get it but dont give it…and giving crit to a group of poets that don’t comment back or support the community is too much work…short and sweat…
def though will consider your thoughts…we are not looking to make any decisions for several weeks as much as gather peoples thoughts….
Oh yes, I see what you mean about the value of OpenLinkNight. Better keep it then! 🙂
Also, thinking about it, I must confess the best crit groups I’ve been in, on or offline, have been closed, with poets of equal calibre (if different styles) who totally ‘get’ each other’s work and trust each other’s opinions.
i think that trust is huge…and it takes time for that to develop…
one thought on the crit group is have it be where people actually post their work…as opposed to on their blog so that if they are receiving critical comments it is not something everyone sees so they dont have to feel as defensive…and i think it is more conducive to developing that trust…i dunno…i have been in several crit groups over the years…i have found crit in a private group to be more genuine and thorough…it takes time to do a really goo crit as well…far more than just commenting, depending on what the person is looking for…line by line analysis, grammar (not me, ha), theme development, rhythm…so many different aspects…
i like this viewpoint, for critical critiques to be for posted work not also posted on a blog
I concur with Rosemary’s opinion about commenting. Creative expression is based on freedom. We choose whom we visit for different reasons. You have to be realistic and accept that not everyone will like or even comprehend your writing. So you then have a choice ,either write to popular appeal where your work will be more accessible and you get more comments or to be authentic and write for yourself and maybe only receive a few.. It would be rare situation that no one would ever received a comment. Personally,I do not want comments that are an exercise in reciprocation or tallying up the numbers. This is not a bakeoff contest. The few that I get are greatly appreciated and suffice in keeping my ego in tact:)
Like Rosemary I comment on work because I like it and certainly do not expect a comment in return. I am mature enough to accept your appreciation of my work will not always be mutual..Feeling pressured to comment sometimes I have not always done this and in the past have struggled to write something, feeling guilty for not reciprocating. I always read those who have commented on my work but only reciprocate if possible.
On a positive note the standard is very high here This is probably the best poetry site on the net and some of us are very exacting in our expectations. I think this is a good thing in a world of ever diminishing standards.I love the form aspect and thank you Bjorn for directing us to Tony’s page. I am embarking on a form binge at the moment. Need more antioxidants in my poetry diet:)
Thank you to the team for your all hard work at dverse and enjoy your well deserved Christmas break . I enjoy the camaraderie here and the opportunity to express my views and share my poetry.
part of that camraderie is through communication though…
so would it be better that no one commented, just appreciated from a distance never speaking what we like or dislike?
in the past we have had expectations among the staff to ensure everyone got a comment. we have recently stopped that in light of increasing number that ‘appreciate from afar’
guess i must write inauthentically eh?
I agree with you, Brian. Personally, I think it’s rude when someone doesn’t return a comment. I always return comments even if it may take me a few hours due to my work schedule. And even if a poet’s style is not particularly my preference, I will still find something to comment about their poem, maybe focus on a specific line that stood out for me. It’s the conversation that makes us grow as poets and improve our writing.
I am not quite sure what you are saying. Why would anyone not comment if they liked something? Is that called appreciating work from a distance? I just call that narcissism which after all is part of the human condition to a greater or lesser degree. Enough of us write poems about this so I wont tackle the issue here:)
I do understand not commenting if they disliked something. Negative comments achieve nothing but friction unless you are inviting a critique.
I have no idea if you write comments authentically or not Brian. I should imagine that your position is a little different. You would feel obligated to find something positive about most people’s work especially the people who receive few comments so that they do not feel excluded and feel encouraged to continue. I do realise hardly anyone is as defined and as discerning (difficult:) as I am and I am truly surprised to find someone (Rosemary) who shares the same view on commenting as myself.. A good reason why I would be most unsuitable to chair a poetry site and will never offer my services to critique:)
If there are people here who receive comments and never ever comment on any work what does it matter? The commenters obviously genuinely like the work because if they were writing for return comments there would be no point.They know in advance they are not going to receive any. I have no idea how many would fall into this category but I am guessing there would only be a few.
I used to know a poet like that on another site who regularly got a copious amount of rave comments and I found his work to be unreadable. I actually felt the need to take it to a respected colleague and seek an opinion because I started to doubt my own critical faculties. Fortunately for me my colleague’s responses were the same.
Ultimately the team will make the decision about the rules of this site. Because the subject is being raised again I can only imagine there have been complaints from a significant number who think that one good comment deserves another. I do not happen to be one of them. Poets generally speaking are nice people with the generosity to match!
too bad that generousity is not shared by all…is all i am saying…you make some rather snap judgements in your comments…pretty wide ones…
i agree on narcisism…and the selfishness of many humans as nature….most dont even notice it about themselves…
i know a few poets like that as well…
Sorry you have taken offense at my comments ..None was intended. I suppose one simple way around the perceived problem would be to ban all the deemed ungenerous poets by cancelling their links, which just leaves the generous ones and then there would be no problem. ..voila poetic Nirvana:)
that is one way…if you read down below, there is some wisdom on how you cant legislate people caring beyond themselves & wanting to invest in community…which i find a lot of truth in…so i dont know what we will do at this point…its all food for thought…
nirvana would be a group of poets commited not just to themselves but the betterment of each other…dont know that is achieveable though….
Cressida, when I comment on poetry, I focus on something that made an impact on me, resonated with me, made me think. To me, it’s not about liking or disliking the poem. And it’s not about whether it was good or bad poetry. It’s simply about having a conversation, a discussion that promotes further thinking. And I think it’s good to read a style different than our own, and step out of our comfort zone. For example, extremely dark poetry is not my preference, but I will still comment on it, not in a negative or insincere way. But I will find something that still resonated with me and I can give feedback about.
Loredana I think resonance is the key word here. No one is suggesting that work should be a mirror image in style or content. But as you said finding something that resonates is important. There are certain styles and some subject matter that just do not resonate with me as I am sure there are with you . Good and bad poetry are terms that I hope do not apply to this forum. There are wide and disparate views on what is deemed good and what is deemed not good poetry in the Anglosphere.
Cressida, if nothing resonates with me with a particular poem, I will find another one to comment on, just so I can return the comment. It’s the courteous thing to do, in my opinion.
Actually I do the same if it just a matter of scrolling down. Hardly anyone does it though. However I would never be so presumptuous or arbitrary as to classify the rest of my poet peers who do not adopt this practice here as discourteous. I think we should be mindful that we are an international poetry community and the codes of courtesy and acceptable behaviour obviously (just like the spelling:) vary in the Anglosphere
Rosemary, I gasp at the idea of even trying to read all the poems at OLN, or even half. I try to read at least 6, taken randomly for the main part from the Mister Linky posts. The eye strain involved in reading more is just too much. One problem, I find, is the black background to the site, and I often have to stop reading long before I get to the end of a conversation. Yes, the link and run brigade are a selfish nuisance, but I can sympathise completely when responses are limited by circumstances.
Oh and happy holiday:)
happy holidays to you as well….travel light.
Enjoy your well-deserved holiday break! I’m fairly new here and appreciate the support.
The critique room is a great idea, and I hope it will be open to everyone, not just select members. I would love some constructive criticism on my poetry.
As for those who link and run, I just stop visiting them if they consistently don’t return comments. I don’t think they should be spammed though (just my humble opinion).
Thanks for all you do, Brian & Claudia and everyone who hosts! Smiles 🙂
thanks L…see my note above on the crit group(s)…really it is a developing idea…matter of fact i mentioned it the first time probably 6 months ago and it just has not come to fruition yet…ha…
i think crit is huge…opening it to everyone would be a ton of work…when we did it before Luke Prater had a team of like 8 people dedicated to it…and its just too much work and we were unable to sustain it for more than a couple months when it was open to everyone…
we had as many if not more dropping links and not visiting anyone there than we do at OLN….because everyone would love crit…but most are not comfortable giving it back, at least not in a public forum.
Oh, I see what you’re saying, Brian. How about if you limit the critique room to, say, 10-15 poets per session on a rotation of sorts. It would be more manageable a small group at a time and allow for give and take critique. What do you think? Smiles 🙂
I always regret that I do not have time to read and comment on more of the poems. I make every effort to read and comment on at LEAST those who have commented on my submissions, but having 3 young boys at home, my time is precious. I’d welcome your opinion on if I’m doing enough for this community (by the way, I simply love what I have experienced here so far!)
i have 2 little boys myself so i understand…a third is a multiplier though..ha.
bryan, i have found you a delightful addition to the group…i think most any time i have visited you that you have either already been to my spot or return comment and i have seen you out visiting others, so i think you are fine…heres to whirled peas eh? smiles.
I am glad you are here with us! 🙂
Bryan .. I love your comments… and your poetry.
It’s good to take time to rest and re-create and I hope your time off is all that and more. I don’t have many answers to your questions but I appreciate how much I’ve learned about the craft of writing poetry here and being exposed to world class poets. Someone above referenced trying to read all poems on OLN. Is that the expectation? Or what is considered a reasonable number to visit? I’m dealing with a 6-9 hour time difference so things get challenging but I treasure this site and the regulars who post and hope to take part in it in whatever form you maintain.
no where near the expectation…i dont even read them all any more…yes, i did once…ha…for probably the first year to year and a half we were open…back when we used to run 170 links at OLN…oy…
no, we have been talking and somewhere in the comments above i mention—if everyone read like 2-3 and then returned comment…or even just returned comment it would be a huge improvement for many…
i know it is not easy. its a commitment.
Thanks for the Pub Talk Brian, and love those tags! ha ha
I’ve read the Pub Talk, and the comments. I need to let you all know something vitally important – this community of poets is one of the best on-line groups I’ve been a part of. Poets, in general, comment and are more encouraging, their critiques honest and their general good humor at tackling prompts and forms are amazing. I’ve written, and continue to write, for communities where you can get 100’s of hits, dozens of likes and no comments. No feed back.
In building a community there will be times of reflection, renewal, building (and rebuilding) but I do not think dVerse is broken or needing a full gutting renovation. Just some furniture moving and paint, as Claudia said, and some time to breathe.
Poetry is one of those amazing forms of expression that can be as tight in form as you need or as wild and free as you wish – and everywhere in between. That is why I will always write it. And I will always cherish those who come to read, and take the time to share, to comment and to chat. This, to me, is both a social forum and a poetic one. And finding that balance, and the need for interactive community is what we need to find our way towards.
Kudos to Brian, Claudia and all the other bar tenders for their hard work, creative spirit and dedication to making our craft something that is enjoyable for many and open for all to come and try their hand at.
My suggestions could be to have once a month an “Invite A Friend” to OLN. Invite a poet friend to join you, introduce them in the comments and in doing so we can get some new faces at the pub!
Keep the social media going strong – I am stuck at the limit for Twitter at the moment (boo) for following, but I will retweet, tag and share as best I can!
Two more weeks and then a breather – let’s make the most of it folks. And I’ll bring the cookies! 🙂
i agree with you on balance…there is the art aspect…and the community aspect…i think we have some of the most talented poets around…and i think we have a great core group of poets that truly seek community as well…
🙂
Shanyn, my goodness, you really had some intense emotion & thoughts on the situation. I remember, years ago, when I would not leave a comment on a poem that already had over 30 on it; but Brian broke me of that habit, noticing each time that I didn’t visit, or leave a line or two. Commenting, actually, can be a creative act in itself; several of my poems came out of the body of some passionate or well written comment.
Glenn I have been inspired by comments too. It is a nice way to connect.
Brian, you and the other bartenders really work hard on our behalf, and do deserve a break. I hope you all enjoy it and don’t spend too much time worrying about changes and problems.
ha. we wont…kinda why i wanted to bring it out now…so we can take some time away from it to digest all the thoughts….
I’m glad you brought this out before we take our “vacation,” Brian, as, in reading through all the comments there are some valid points of view and concerns from all involved. For me, it’s hard to balance the joy of the work we do, including commenting, with the–I don’t want to say burden–but huge commitment. At times I haven’t participated simply because I knew I wouldn’t have time to give thoughtful responses. And, except on those days when I host, I could never begin to comment on everyone…simply a physical reality associated with some health issues. But I do commit to comment on everyone who comments on me and around 10 or so others. When, as tenders, we used to have a specific “assignment,” I had ones in the hundreds. It seemed that there, few comments were returned. Perhaps they were people just dipping their toes in the water to see what it was all about. I trust that the break will give all of us a new perspective on what dVerse is all about, and what commitment we are able to make.
def the tail enders on OLN def are harder…and perhaps you are right in that they may be dipping their toes in…it is at times a burden…i can agree on that…and it being a commitment…and one that is not always easy…there is a joy to it…when we see one of our poets succeed, to be published, to be recognized, or even just to see growth in their writing. really i would rather the growth because i personally dont see publishing as the be all end all.
Brian, one other thought. I just had to go back in the archives in order to return a comment from Rambly. There is the time zone issue. I don’t know how it comes down for everyone, but I’m in the Pacific zone. Oftentimes, like today, I’m really delayed in making rounds. Yesterday, I confess, the 49’er game kept me otherwise occupied, but then today I had dental appts and some errands. Makes me wonder how this may affect commenting…if at all.
Oh, and I forgot. Encourage everyone to leave their full URL to make it easier. Some are just gravatars, like Jenny’s was and others are missing some component. It saves so much time.
I agree, Victoria. I have a hard time with those whose links lead to Google-Plus. I much prefer the link to lead to a blog. Also, it is easier if the name a person posts under is the same name that you see in the blog. That way if you have to go and look for someone, it is a lot easier.
Mary & Victoria, solid points given here; it gets difficult when some folks use a different name on FB, Twitter, and/or more than one blog; kind of a detective assignment to connect with with a avatar persona only. The time zone issue seems to be handled fairly calmly at dVerse, and leaving the prompts open for 33 hrs, there seems to be plenty of time, wherever on the globe the poet is, to participate. OLN has always been kind of overwhelming to me. If I can not push & shove to get in during the first 20 links, & I come in late, like over 75, I always feel sad that my hard work is shuffled into the heavy tail enders. In terms of comments left on my blog for any of my poetics, 10-12 is my average, & they are all thoughtful & sincere. I’ve often wondered, considering the idiosyncratic nature of my style, what kind of a comment I would have left on it if it had been someone else’s?
ha. you make it easy…i love your cinematic style…and for what it is worth i had someone send me an email yesterday suggesting you as a future pubtender sir g…so know that your efforts as well do not go unnoticed…
Breaks are good. Vital, even. I marvel at how the hosts and regulars comment on so many posts while still having lives and writing your own poetry.
Does it make sense to schedule a weeklong break *every* quarter – heck, maybe every month – with no prompts or Poetics or OLN or anything – to give y’all a chance to catch up or just chill? Since if this becomes too much a chore – what’s the fun in that?
Drag that so many don’t add to the dialog, yet good to see so many who do. ~
it is a thought on the break…and someone threw that out in our discussion yesterday on taking regularly scheduled breaks…i def want to protect against it being just an obligation…because that does not good for anyone….
I think you’ve established a solid enough community, and there’s enough other stuff happening out on the intertoobs that folks would get accustomed to a regularly scheduled break, then return when the doors re-open.
As far as non-contributors – well, it’s part of the package. Not so sure about putting people into spam status or preventing them from contributing. I read most everyone, but after I leave a few comments, if they never reply, I put them on my own don’t-bother list. It’s not formal, and from time to time will re-visit. I suspect that if you have regularly scheduled breaks, you’ll have more patience for the non-responsive. And bear in mind, some folk may be tempermentally unsuited to reply, but do benefit from having a forum for sharing their own work.
As far as critique goes, way up thread? – I think he should start his own blog and have his own rules there. Y’all do great work, and I commend you for taking time with yourselves and families. ~
ha took me a second to figure out what you were talking about in the end there…smiles…yes…
i have a similar list as well…one benefit of reading most everyone is it becomes really easy to see who is interacting and who is not…the the trends in people…i often revisit it as well…occassionally dropping in one someone i have been skipping for their lack of participation…
I am rather new at dVerse but have always found the team to be supportive and encouraging. Thank you all for the great work! Enjoy your well-deserved break and holiday!
thanks gabriella…i think we have a great team that works very hard to make this a special place…
I can understand the need for a break . . . I’m finding that it’s naturally happening while my mum is visiting. It’s important to spend time with friends and family and recharge. I love the community here and in the short time that I’ve been visiting everyone has been so supportive and a huge inspiration. I feel that if people have time to link up then they should have time to read a few of the other links too. You guys are amazing and I always wonder how you all find the time to provide such rich and diverse topics and prompts. I honestly wish I’d found dVerse sooner.
every day is a new day you know…and glad that people are always joining…you are good people kathryn…congrats on your citizenship recently as well…and best wishes on that book you are putting together…
Thanks Brian, you have such a great spirit about you. I love your energy, enthusiasm and the way you are able to encourage others.
I don’t have much to add to what has already been said. I think Brian and Claudia have created a great community here in its diversity. Thank you both for all that you have done to create a great place. As one of the ‘pub tenders,’ I understand the people who link and run. I know everyone cannot comment on everyone, but surely if someone comments on their poem, they could make a return visit. I think after a while one knows who never comments on anyone else’s work & one passes them by after a while. I like to experience reciprocity with other poets in the community.
At this time I really don’t think about critique within the community. I think abut sharing with each other, enjoying what other poets write. I think with so many different levels of experience, critique somewhere like open link would be hard. I think the backroom for critique does have merit though. Something to think about.
Hope everyone has a happy holiday.
yep lots of things to give thought to in this conversation…its been good to read through the different perspectives…and def gives food for thought over the next couple weeks….thanks for all you give tot he poetry community as well mary…
This makes me sad. I love this community but have issues that prevent me from reading more than a few. It brings me joy to contribute. Was told this blurriness can be fixed eventually with laser (post cataract surgery from last year) but it has to get much worse first. Even then, don’t know about reading much just because of age and focus. I know I’m b*tching but hope such things are considered before dropping those who only visit a few others. It what I can do. I like that you are taking a break…everyone deserves a break and the holidays should be family time. Hugs for all you do.
I love that you are here, and that you are sharing with us. You are travelling a hard path and I think we all respect that, and appreciate when you do your best. That goes for everyone who is trying a midst the stuff that is real life that calls for our attention (why do they always want to be fed? ha ha and you can guess who I’m talking about! ha ha).
Don’t quit, anyone who is sharing here is contributing in my opinion, and is valued. You took the time to read and to share.
maggie…you are a great contributor…and i appreciate all that you bring..it brings joy as well…heck if everyone visited a few others we would be doing good…smiles…that suggestion was in relation to those that link and never visit anyone…and there are quite a few…i never would have thought of you though…smiles.
Good evening – this community has always been a caring and open place for folks to test their wings. I know that I have become a better writer because of the thoughtful and gracious comments and encouragement I have received from Brian and Claudia in particular, but so many others as well.
I have learned the lesson well these past few months that taking time to reflect and recover is a necessary part of a healthy life. And I want dVerse to continue to be healthy and strong, filled with the joy of new poets finding their voices as well as those incredibly talented poets who grace us with their words.
I know the time and effort it takes to make this community a place we all want to visit. I so appreciate Brian and Claudia and all the tenders – I hope you all have a wonderful few weeks, filled with joy of the season – smiles – K
i wish you that joy of christmas as well k…smiles…
i want it to continue as well…and i think that this time will give us a little relief and maybe some new perspective as well…so looking forward to just breathing a bit free and just writing whatever comes…
I enjoyed reading the comments & some very thoughtful words ~ You know my thoughts about this Brian and I look forward to helping out the best way I can ~ This is my way to giving back to the community that have helped & shaped me in my writing ~
Wishing you all a happy week and I will be blogging again after my exams (this Wednesday) ~ Have a good night ~
i like that attitude grace…my way of giving back to the community that has helped me out…that is exactly what is important and needed…smiles.
Well, brother, I get the feeling that this hiatus will shore up some lagging enthusiasm, redecorate the Pub, maybe change the header, & with each change will come first invigoration, & then a plethora of complaints & confusion, until each of us adjusts. There is room for change, & growth will sprout out of it. Don’t know if the new model will be streamlined, or just have new parameters, but I fully get why the step back is essential. I am now getting excited about the (new) Pub! I have always expected slow downs or Pub closures during the holidays, & like this Thanksgiving, keep getting surprised when the Pub was open.
I like your enthusiasm Glenn 🙂 And your comments are always poetic to me ~
i am excited as well…since making the decision to close up for 3 weeks and starting the conversation among the pub tenders…and even here tonight, it is exciting me…i dont like getting stuck in the same route…change is good…even the thought of change can shake us up….
Hiya, dVerse Crew. Firstly, MAD props to you guys for doing such an amazing job here. I honestly don’t know how you manage to do such a bang up job, and still have the energy and creativity left over for your own work! I’m only an “occasional” poster here; I don’t get to visit as often as I would like, but when I do, I try to reciprocate with as many as I can. Sometimes it’s a dozen people, sometimes less, but I usually manage to return comments on those who take the time to visit me and read my contribution(s). But that’s me. Others may (and do, obviously) have different time constraints and ethical standards when it comes to that kind of thing.
As for the problem(s) of those who link and run, those who never visit others or comment…well, I guess that’s part and parcel of the open community. I have to admit that the closed poetry groups where I have participated seemed to have better, more thoughtful critiques and there was a certain level of comfort and familiarity because the numbers stayed relatively small and you *knew* that the people there were committed to growth and helping others.
However, when you have such a large community of people as you do here at dVerse, it expounds the chances of having more link-n-run types. Setting people to a spam status is one way, and so is the closed back room idea, but if you’re going to go to the trouble to filter, why not just go ahead and make it a closed community?
You guys can’t be responsible for what others do or don’t do, when it comes to visits, comments, etc. Most of us here are adults, and I think most people understand about the give and take (eventually, most people ‘get a clue’ and don’t bother with those who never give back). And even though you’re the mods, it’s not your responsibility to make sure whether or not the members give back. It’s great and generous that you DO, but the only way to truly ‘control’ who follows the rules is to make it a closed community. Which limits you in other ways, of course.
I’m not saying anything that others haven’t already said in the comments above (Yep, I read through all of them, and there is one specific person whose elitist, arrogant comments don’t strike me as helpful or necessary in such a kind, positive place like dVerse). Bottom line: what is your “mission statement”, what is your ultimate goal here? Open to everyone means exactly that, you take it with the good and the bad, the givers and the takers. Rules/Guidelines are good, but unless you close the group, you’re limited on controlling who does and doesn’t follow them.
Sorry to be so long-winded. In closing, I just wanna add: You guys rock! Holiday reboot definitely well-deserved. I hope it recharges and refreshes all of you. 🙂 I’ll be around, catch you next year. 😉
i appreciate your thoughtful response…and it is true that really we have no control over what anyone does in this world beyond ourselves and the code that we live by…i do think that we, or i personally do take responsibility for the community we are trying to create and try to shape it as we can…and in that expectations can arise and begin to choke the fun…the desire maybe to have a community that cares enough for each other that they freely give of themselves to each other but that kind of ethics can not be legislated…there will always be those that give in to the nature of self which is rampant in our world today…
you gave me food for thought here…i appreciate that…
Oh, one more, Brian?
Last week, I posted on dverse Open Mic and then forgot to go back and visit some of the links. I did meet up with many dverse posters through Toads and from my comments section. I do my level best to visit every commenter as a courtesy and in appreciation.
But I HAVE BEEN guilty, either through brain malfunction or simple overbooking (espec. this time of year), of not responding to other poets. I would not blame you if you blocked me, and yet I hope you won’t, because I do my best to click links and have, in fact, met quite a few interesting international poets through Open Mic.
As far as critique – I welcome critique on my site. Recently, I was being haunted by a racist. I was OK exchanging with him, but when he commented on my other readers’ comments, that’s when I blocked him. I don’t mind people picking on my controversial poems, but don’t mess with my peeps.
FYI. Brian, I have never found a comment from you anywhere that did not indicate you understood exactly what the poet meant and adding details. Your level of commitment floors me. Have a blessed time off, and I do believe the discernment will shake out in time. Peace to all, Amy
always room for one more…smiles…
we have blocked no one yet…i just wanted to lay out some of the thoughts from our conversation as we struggled with what kind of community we want to become…and what the things are that keep us from getting there…when i see those out there reaching out to poets and then click back to their site and see so few having returned the touch, its frustrating…
i would rather the number be smaller if they were commited quite honestly…we dont need another tick in the box to make us have greater numbers…its why i am def not stressing that our numbers are down over a year ago…i just dont want to lose good people that burn themselves out commenting on a bunch of link droppers…
working in and close to ministry i am sure you understand how good people can get over used and fall away…its a hard line to walk at times….
I do understand, Brian. My burnouts are chemical, but it’s the same thing. A funk is a funk is a funk. Our work in ministry is sometimes taxing, especially for me.
RE: blog: I’m lucky in that I receive a good amount of feedback, which is why, when I link to dverse from now on, I will not do it BEFORE I read at least 15 or 20 posts. I take time commenting, as you do, never simply saying, “Great!” for the sake of leaving a comment. Also, when folks comment with something long and helpful, I will often copy my reply and email it to them, with thanks for contributing to the quality of my blog. Hope you have a restful time during Christmas and New Year’s! Peace, Amy
I appreciate all you do here, Brian. Have a restful break.
alright, gotta get some shut eye…good thoughts tonight everyone…will be back tomorrow and probably be filtering through this one for a bit…
Oh kids, I am so glad Amy steered me here and I didnt miss this conversation. Thanks, Amer! Brian, Claudia, and other staff, I SO KNOW that running these sites can be a burnout position. I have seen it before. Because dVerse is such a great site, it attracts large numbers. We went through this at Poets United, when Real Toads grew as an offshoot, for people who wanted to work in a smaller, closer way with each other.
You give SO MUCH, with your amazingly numerous and supportive comments and I am so happy you are taking a break to replenish yourselves. Whatever you all decide works best, I will support you and forever applaud you for what you have grown here. Brian, you are so supportive and positive and your comments are EVERYWHERE. I am always amazed, as I trudge around, behind as always, trying to Catch Up – you are ALWAYS there before me!!!!! And so generously. Your comments are real, detailed and full of heart, you dont just fire off “drive-by” comments. I admire you so much, and your other staff who make this such a popular Destination Blog.
Rest and try not to think too much about the blogosphere (though I know…you will likely all be sneaking back to check online through the break, no?)
I hope you can find a way to minimize the work and frustrations, and keep going in a way that works for you all. Mary and I greatly admire the way you run dVerse.
smiles…i appreciate all you do for the poetic community as well sherry…thanks for the encouragement and your support….
I hope you all have a wonderful holiday season with your families! I will really miss you and this place! Go rest and enjoy–you so deserve it. Looking forward to what the new year brings here 🙂
This has been a very interesting debate tonight. My concern is;, the pervasive erosion of freedoms (both thought and speech) in the current societal drift towards cultural marxism which demands conformity, and intolerance of a different view point. Difference is seen as threatening and must be eliminated.
e.g the person who does not comment on the work of others and not deemed to having the required community spirit. This person may not be a team player,may be narcissistic, ungenerous, maybe ostracised by others for not reciprocating, for non conformity,for not recognising the status quo, for expressing controversial opinions,
for their style and linguistic expression and a whole host of other reasons.
I still support that person’s right to submit their work. I may not like them. I may not like their views style or expression but I defend their right to hold such views. I am not compelled to read their work if I find it offensive and not compelled to comment ( at this stage anyway) even if they comment on mine. Someone may derive inspiration from it. Surely there is some merit in that.
oh wow…. love the conversation… will save it on my phone and read through it during the day…
Late to the party, as always, but very hotly debated topic, as I can see. I do agree that everyone needs a bit of a breather, especially over the holidays. I am always amazed and humbled how Brian and Claudia especially, but also another stalwart handful of others always visit and comment (even when my poems are so rough they deserve nothing more than ‘well, at least you tried…’). So I don’t know how you do it, but you certainly deserve a break and recharging of the batteries.
I don’t always have the opportunity to read all the poems myself and feel guilty that I just skim-read or have nothing substantial to say. In that case, I prefer to post nothing myself, since I feel I cannot return the favour of reading.
I try to visit a selction of about 20 blogs, time containts are an issue.
I know from my site stats that only about a third to a quarter of my visitors comment. That’s fiine.
The issue for me (and presumably the non-commenters on my site) is that I often don’t like what I read and, rather than saying so, slink away quietly. Perhaps we need something like a visiting card “I came, I read, I left, thanks for the cookies”. I have seen people cut & paste the same comment into every blog they visit. There is some merit in that.
I especially do not like false gushing – either on my posts or on the ones I visit. Many comments on sites are just that and, read in conjunction with an impenetrable and intractble post, just make you shake your head in dismay and wonder what you have missed. Better no comments than being knee deep in maple syrup. And reading some of teh comments on my blog, the posters clearly have not read the poem. Or have missed its intent by the proverbial country mile.
We are asked to critically review posts but, in reality, few people want that and fewer still learn from it.
A current project of mine is to create a blogroll of people whose work I admire and to visit them regardless of where or when they link. Post to the hub or hubs of your choice but graze in friendly paddocks and review any new commenter on your post as a possible new addition to the herd.
Them’s me thoughts.
I should also add that I do not comment when there is word verification. Life is too short to try to fathom out those things.
Mmmm….the system ate my first post. That sucks.
Summarising:
1. I visit a selection of abt 20 sites but only comment on the ones that appeal.
2. I know from my own stats only 25-30% of visitors comment.
3. If I don’t like a post I don’t comment. I sometimes comment tangentially, on the topic rather than on the handling of it.
4. There should be a visiting card we can post “I came, I saw, I left, thanks for the cookies”
5. I do not like the gushers – people who dish out maple syrup to largely impenetrable and intractable prose.
6. We are asked to be critical but in reality no-one wants that.
7. I am building a blogroll of writers I enjoy and who i will visit regardless of where they post links.
Them’s me thoughts, as I recall them.
Absolutely, you wonderful hosts and bartenders should be able to give your families and friends proper time over the festive season. This amazing place should complement your lives, not be a drain and a distraction. Loved ones come first.
As for the takers who never give – that’s a difficult one to solve. I know that for myself, some weeks I just cannot read others’ poems because I have a long, long day and I’m in a different time zone. But I always respond to those who comment on my blog, because I truly appreciate every person who feels moved to do so. I tell you now, I feel very guilty if I cannot comment on others poetry – it bothers me greatly!
For me, this community and others have quite literally saved my sanity this year. To express my feelings at the loss of my beautiful, amazing inspiring dad this summer, to know that ‘this too will pass’ and then to share a bit of fun when the mood has taken me – magical times in the most challenging part of my life.
I wish you all well, I wish you some rest, some rejuvenation and some time to think where next this hug of a pub will proceed on its journey.
Freya, I know that the weeks I know I cannot respond to other people’s poetry I choose not to share a poem of my own in a particular forum because I would never want to have the reputation of being a link dropper. I would feel guilty dropping a link if I knew I could really not participate. As for being in a different time zone, I think a lot of people ARE in different time zones. After a while we know who is in the US, who is in Europe, who is in India, who is in Australia, etc. and when we comment on blogs we realize the response will come during waking hours. I am never bothered by delayed commenting from other time zones, but what I am bothered by is lack of response at all.
It’s a tough one. My weeks never turn out to be as easy to forecast, unfortunately. I never really know how much time I am going to have. So, I do my best. I hope it isn’t made a rule that if you can’t comment, you don’t post, because by that standard, I might link up, then find that I can’t comment on others’ and then find that I have broken the rule. Gratuitous link-dropping with the knowledge that you have no intention of taking part in a contributory way is entirely different… And let’s face it, seeing 40 or 50 poems for reading is rather daunting – I would end up staying up into the small hours to read and comment – and I have to get up at 5.30am for work!
Like I said, it’s a tough one…
Hello everyone. Goodness so many interesting comments. Firstly the rest is well deserved and required. You guys work so hard at keeping this community together. Victoria mentioned about my Gravatar only showing? Can someone advise – as yes I am fledging, fluttering with my poetry (as you all would have gathered by now), secondly my computer skills aren’t very savvy – (hangs head).
If there is something I can do to correct PLEASE let me know.
Regarding comments, for a few weeks in a row, I would make it a point to read a min of 25 different writers, to receive about 6 return to mine. Time issues face everyone, work commitments also, but it takes 5 seconds of kindness does it not to write a small comment. It does not have to be detailed, but it does or should at least show that you have actually read the work in question.
I sadly no longer follow, or read those that have never returned to my site, because although we do this for love, it is also nice to have feed-back good or bad, encouraging and supporting one another in what they do. I especially would welcome critique about my work, this is the only way I shall continue to learn and grow.
I hope everyone has a wonderful break and whatever decisions are made, I am sure I will (as will everyone else) be happy to accept. I have met some brilliant people in The Pub and some amazingly talented artists. Many of whom are extremely caring ‘Mr. Miller’ being one of those people. So I thank you all for making DVerse what it is today, a friendly, relaxing, warm nook in which us writers from all over the globe can be a part of.
ha. mr. miller….lol…you are making me feel my age now….smiles….
i do very similar in that those that never visit i will often cull from my list of those i visit…and that has def reduced the ‘work’ load…its a labor of love you know…i have a strong vein in mentoring and or helping others…claudia has referred to it as shepherding…ha…so i tend to play my cards that direction….
I for one love your shepherding and am grateful – big smiles!
Enjoy your holiday break pub tenders. You guys do a wonderful job here. I plan on putting my writing cap on during the holiday, as I have so little time to write at the moment.
Peace and love,
Pamela
Oh well! you guys at the bar do deserve a break. (ok let me admit i was quite thinking of how would I manage my bit of keeping up with the pub exercises, writing and readin for I am away for a fortnight durign the same period as the pub …so a chuckle chuckle at the pub plans of taking a break) Not easy running the pub, posting feelers of prompts and reading them ALL. NOT AT ALL EASY. I do agree about the OLN, relatively easy to link and go out; perhaps, one reason why I kept out of linking at OLN as the time zones left me a backlog of 100+ poetry links and reading even ten per cent of them was a task. From where I began I have come a long way and have a longer way to go, with dVerse, when back, comes refreshing – new ideas, new concepts…its been a wonderful experience here and i am sure it us here to stay!
Brian & Claudia,
Thanks so much for your unending commitment through the years.
Having been here, most of the time, since the doors first opened. There have been many who have come and gone. Frankly, I miss some of those who are no longer with dVerse (Chris G. who stops in once-in-awhile). I know there are seasons in writing and respect the fact that life is busy.
For me, when poetry becomes more like a job instead of a joy I need to back off. I in fact stopped posting for two months recently… the only one who really noticed was Brian. Thanks Brian for checking up on things.
People enjoy different things. Some like a good mystery and others a comedy. Poetry is no different. Lets face it, with crazy lives most will gravitate to certain types of poetry which speak to them. We all have our favorite dozen poets we like to stop by for encouragement or a good laugh. I’d rather have my poetry speak to someone; rather than a quick comment just to get through 100 links.
I suggest to simplify. Let us know if you need help.
Well I appreciate all you do. The articles are always interesting and I think it is great that there is a place where a community can band together and practice their craft on one another. But I also understand your consternation about people you call, or have been called ‘loafers’ because they do not reciprocate. Speaking for myself I try to touch on everybody’s work at least sometime during the first day of postings–after that there seems to be not enough time considering the number of those that contribute. I especially try to reciprocate stoppingh by with those who have taken the time to meander over my offerings. However, there are times I simply don’t have a comment for some people I visit that would be anymore than gratutious, which is worse I think than not commenting at all. I read the work but pass on commenting. I don’ty consider myself a ‘loafer’ because of that. As for your back room idea. I think in principle it sounds great but an unwieldly idea. Better you sghould set up a mentor program so those who are further alonmg in their skills in writing can best help those who are seeking to improve. Having two or three people to be in conversation with about their poetry would be a n easier task for promoting constructive criticism for other poets. A poet could sign up as being willing to mentor and decide on those he or she wanted to take the time to work with. I jusat don’t think you will be able to generate the kind of constructive criticism you are hoping to generae in a public forum. Mentoring is more like poetry, intimate. On your main point about what to do about those who link but don’t seem to reciprocate reading other’s poetry I think there are thos who may do that, those who don’t feel comfortable about what to say to others about their work and those who for one reason or another simply don’t have the time. I think you have to decide to be onew thing or the otther–an open forum for displaying the work of any poet who wishes to participate or be a closed private club. You cannot be both. To think you can ‘police’ it holds yourselves up to be the arbiters of social justice which is a fallacy. Form a workshop site and make it by invitation only, or leave it open and deal with the fact that not everyone sees things the way you do. In essence you are whining about taking your ball and going home because the other kids don’t want to follow the rules. There can be no rules, except propriety of course, if you are open to the public. Who will be the arbiter of who can stay and who must go? What criteria will you use? What justiufication will you have for that criteria?
You can’t have your cake and eat it too. I think those that don’t participate the way you feel they should will cull themselves out over time and will be replaced by others just like them so you will always have that element to deal with. I say simply ignore them and it will take care of itself. To finish where is it written anywhere that people will be fair either in participation levels or in policing levels? I think you open yourself up to more problems by trying to be this pure thing you envisioned than you do by letting it take its course. Let it move where it will , water aleways finds it’s own level. >KB
One last thought. If you decided to try a mentoring project I would persoanlly agree to take on at least two poets who would like to work with me. Of course that is a presumption on my part that there are two people that would wish to work with me. But having made the suggestion I felt I should at least be the first to throw my hat into the ring. But wot would be what I think I could handle and give the time it takes to do accomplish progress in helping another poet. THanks. >KB
good morning…busy morning at work so i will catch up and read through the overnight comments and suggestions as i dont want to just give it a cursory once over….be back in a bit…
First, you guys definitely deserve a break; I don’t know how you’ve gone this long without one! Enjoy!
Second, I think Michael (Grapeling) has a point. With a little time, the regulars tend to figure out who’s just dropping a link and respond to them accordingly. I’m afraid trying to police poor participation in some “official” way would just end up creating more work for you guys on top of all that you already do.
i agree on the more work aspect…i def dont want to create more work or have us trying to police…that is unproductive and would just take more time away from the community and the poetry….
Wow, it’s been such an interesting conversation. Brian, I hope this remains an open poetry site. Maybe you could have a core membership of selected poets who are willing and able to participate more fully, and still keep it open to followers and visitors. Hope you all have a great holiday! Smiles 🙂
oh i dont think it being open or closed is even in question…these conversations are good to have to affirm things we are doing well and wrestle with areas of concern…its been interesting to hear feedback and it will be valuable as we mull over the changes, if any…as i said, it may be we just need a break to regroup individually so that we are ready to press on…and that maybe we need to schedule these breaks a couple times a year to stay fresh…
I love dVerse. I post only at perhaps three communities. I always read the poetry of others. Just a few mind you. I keep my world small, though perhaps I need to branch out. I find that difficult as I like to make friends with those few with whom I connect. I have found much kindness here. When I open my mailbox in the AM I am always so happy to see new posts from my friends or responses by them to my own work.
When you spoke of “fully participating” I just assumed that you meant taking responsibility for prompts and other jobs. I would be most willing and happy to participate in that manner. Email me at: lrsosne@gmail.com if I might participate in another manner.
This was a wonderful post. I really appreciate your thoughtfulness of your readership. I wish you wonderful and happiness filled holidays. A late: “Happy Thanksgiving,” a heartfelt Happy Hanukkah and a very Merry Christmas to all. I love dVerse!
I truly enjoy Open Link Night, and when I have time to visit a fair amount of links on this night, I add my link. If I know I won’t have time, I skip joining in on the fun. Life gets a bit hectic at times, so it’s not always easy to participate in blog hops. Open Link Night is something I know is there weekly, if I can participate. Today, I’m participating and have every intention of visiting as many blogs as I can. Last week, I didn’t even share a link, because I knew there was no way to actively participate, by not only posting, but visiting other blogs and enjoying other poems. Once the holidays are over, I hope to link up and participate in Open Link Night more consistently – preferably every week. Regardless, I share your badge on all 5 of my blogs and do my best to promote your site (along with a few dozen others, I might add.) Poetry is so essential for the soul.
Admittedly, I haven’t had as much time to get to know your site better, something I’m planning to do post holidays. 2013 has been a rough year for me – 2 family members got so sick and then my Mom passed. You simply don’t know how much I’m looking forward to putting it behind me. Truth be told, I’m amazed I’ve kept up with blogging as much as I have. That said, it’s been a great way to deal with some of the things that have gone on this year. Please keep me on your list. I love this place.
Best of all holidays to everyone, and thanks for hosting such a wonderful site!
M. J.
i am sorry on the passing of your mom…my mother in law passed a few years ago and it was particularly hard….esp for my wife…i am glad you are still around and hope that the coming year is a good one for you…smiles.
I too find it difficult sometimes to take part in Open Link Night, especially since i live on the other side of this world 🙂 Odd time zones keep me from commenting as much i would want to, but i do try, when and in any way i can. I try to read as much as other links as i can, and i tweet lots of them so i can show my participation. Havent linked much past few months, but am looking forward to it again. My best wishes to all, and a warm hug
Yiota
I believe those in charge are overdue for some R&R and I hope everyone takes advantage of the time away from the pub. You deserve it!! It is called DVERSEpoets for a reason; we are diverse in our locations, cultures and writing preferences and style. I love the way this site is run and functions and am so grateful for the caring feedback and community it provides.
Last night I fell asleep with computer in bed reading this conversation..started up where I left off when I awoke….it happens to with OLN mostly….when I do submit something I read and comment on as many as I can, as with the other prompts. We all have schedules, responsibilities, and situations that prevent us sometimes from being as involved as we would like to be. And then there are those who deliberately take advantage…but it’s a two way street…and the give and take is part of the deal.
I imagine some talented (advanced) poets who have come and gone who were assets before may no longer be interested in reading beginners’ works and steer away from them. There’s a lot to be said for growing (change) while here and leaving the nest so to speak. I am aware not all read or like my style of writing or the level at which one might be; at least I think that is why some never come back?
I like the ideas of rotating, of mentors and possibly workshops – and occasional breaks for those who run the site. Perhaps more options are out there that have not been thought of that would diminish the problems with the least amount of work and time and heighten the interest or participation of more people as well. I have faith a solution will come out of this discussion. Happy Holidays to all.
dVerse: a blessing and a curse. Scrolling through this seemingly interminable comment stream reminds me of why I seldom participate anymore: there are too many voices clamoring for attention. I’m not judging or criticizing it, just not participating. I dislike crowds. A boisterous party, for me, feels like being stuck inside a beehive. Put me at a table with 5 or 6 people and I’m happy. I can focus on what everyone is saying and participate. However, I would not advocate kicking out the guy who has a beer without talking to anyone else. It doesn’t seem right to invite the world in then complain about the behavior of some – unless they’re trying to burn down the place.
i have often come to the Mr. Linky, scrolled through, read poems and sometimes commented without ever linking my own poem, but I have generally avoided visiting poets who have never commented on mine. I think most participating poets come up with their own personal blacklist. An administrative one sounds like a bad idea to me. And an ‘invite only’ back room, I think, would damage the open-door atmosphere that dVerse is based on. It is what it is, but it’s too big and too boisterous for me. When I was posting prompts and agreed to be assigned a certain number (well over 100) of poets to visit, i fulfilled my agreement as best I could, but it went against all of my instincts as a reader. I do not believe anyone is served by a forced reading or comment, or a return comment out of a sense of obligation. i believe that a genuine comment, based on a desire to respond to a poem that the reader has engaged with is all that should be expected – or encouraged. Comment or don’t comment, read or don’t read, it shouldn’t matter. What matters is there is a place here to share your poems, should you desire to do so, and a place to find other poets and poems, should you desire to meet them. I have found a few really good ones. Hurray for that.
Wowzer; lots of energy, lots of good wishes, good ideas, holiday blessings, with the compulsory sprinkling of nay sayers & critics. Most of us agree that dVerse has always stood tallest in the gaggle of other poetic sites, & that excellence, that heart is 100% secondary to the creators of the site, Brian & Claudia. We all feel adopted, cuddled, loved, respected, honored. Forget the Shortie Awards, they both deserve the Behemoth Award! Whatever changes dVerse will undergo, we stand by the hundreds at the ready, to accept new parameters, to treat each respectfully, to continue to grow as poets & human beings.
Wise indeed for you all to have a time of rest. I pray that for you have poured out you receive multiplied blessings in renewal and refreshment.
I know I can not visit every link on Tuesday for the list is long, but I try to read and comment on as many posts as possible, even as the week moves on. Those who leave a link and never interact with others are missing the reason this community exists. This makes me sad, but yes, perhaps they should be directed to the spam bin.
Its kinda sad to wander in and see the same old problem rearing its ugly head once again. But, its seems most of you are on top of it, with some good ideas of a way forward. I have no idea how you confront a situation like this. I am going to surmise that its a problem that is never going to go away completely. But of course, it goes without saying, I wish you the best of luck.
The words dried up, then my sons house got in the way of anything more creative than a coat of paint!
Wishing you all very happy and peaceful Christmas and my best wishes to all you old regulars of this place for 2014. Who knows, I just might make a comeback at some point next year?
Take care and stay safe.
I can’t tell you HOW MUCH dVerse means to me. I particularly enjoy “meeting the bar” challenges and try to only participate when I can visit everyone. The Open Link Night I try to get to at least 20 people. (not sure if that is enough or not…) I really like the idea of closing the doors from time to time for a much needed rest. We all know how addictive this is – the creativity, the interaction. Yet, our family often does not – or if they do (as in my case) wish I could “moderate” it a bit more.
I will agree with anything you suggest as I do not want any of you wonderful people who make dVerse possible to burn out! God Bless you all.
I so love the community here, I know I have been quite “absent” lately due to some health problems, but in general I am happy to spend the time reading others work, and really enjoy all the talent out there (here). We have such a great community/resource here, and I really appreciate all that so many of you do to keep it going. I think a break makes good sense for all the reasons mentioned…looking forward to seeing what the New Year will bring!
Coming in late to this discussion. As long as you are just closing your doors through the holidays and not forever, I’m okay with that. I would miss you all if you decided to close your doors for good!! I have learned so much from Poetics and Meeting the Bar. Perhaps we don’t tell you all enough what source of learning and encouragement you all are!
Regarding this whole reciprocation thing–I think this relates more to Open Link Night than anything else. Yes I admit, there are times I’ve personally been a bit frustrated, because I know I’ve commented on many but have only a few to show on my own piece. But I also understand that we each have different tastes in writing, and not everything is going to be everyone else’s cup of tea. Regarding my own commenting habits–I read some from the beginning and comment, then do the same at the end, then skip around the middle a bit. I try to find a couple of new names I may not have read before and say something encouraging. And I admit, I have a few favorites I always make a point of reading! I try to comment back on those who’ve shared one on my page. It would be impossible for me to read and comment on every piece shared on OLN. Yes, I could just say “Great write!” on all of them, but that’s not exactly sincere, nor does it tell the person what I like about it. I’d rather express what I liked about a piece and why. But this takes time. And there are occasions when everyday life has put unforeseen demands on time and pulls me away from the site. My sharing has been a bit sporadic lately, mostly because of such demands. I’ve choose not to share if I know I can’t spend a proper amount of time here. And of course, sometimes work just gets in the way!!
Anyways, I think closing through the holidays not only gives you a break, but us also as we prepare, decorate and spend our time with family. I hope all of you wonderful hosts and “bartenders” at the pub have a lovely and restful holiday season. Will look forward to spending time with all of you in the new year. Best wishes to all!
Hey Brian…late to the conversation….I posted a few things at the end of last year and did my best to read other’s work. I haven’t posted all year but I’m good to go again. I sure appreciate what you & Claudia provide here and my new rule of thumb will be, if I don’t/can’t make the time to read others work, then I won’t post mine…seems only fair. Enjoy your time off and Happy Holidays!
Mary
Dear Brian and all,
Apologies for not having the time to join this conversation sooner – but certainly went to bed last night with all the related issues circling in my mind. And Isuppose it has given me more time to reflect on a matter which certainly matters to me – namely the future of the dverse site, which I consider to be the best of its kind on the net, by some distance…
The resulting hotbed of debate and differing views comes as no surprise to me, as strategizing for the future in areas like this is no easy business and it has also been very helpful for me to read through the 150+ comments so far!
I would urge caution, in relation to some of the possible changes floated so far – in my view, certainly what you don’t want to do is risk damaging the nature and, more importantly the spirit of the beautiful and valuable creative initiative you have established here.
Those that know my work, know that I am nothing if not a philosophical poet! So here goes… It is in the nature of things that whatever is open-hearted and beautiful, by its very nature will lay itself open to abuse and the more it adopts and grows into that delightful spirit, the more this inevitably will be the case… In life, that is just the way it is! And needs to be and indeed will ever be so… And ultimately the only way any entity can ultimately be sure of being protected from this process, which lies at the very heart of the human condition, is for that entity itself to undermine the very spirit of generosity that makes it so special. And I suggest that is now, given its success to date, the crossroads at which that dverse finds itself.
So with that in mind, I would urge you to consider that there is no need for any further prescriptive rules or indeed exclusions – otherwise what have you achieved beyond being dragged down to the level of the least generous amongst you? Which in Scottie terms is a victory of sorts for the dark over the light…
And what then will have happen to the precious ‘open’ community you have already so valuably created? After all what you have here, again inevitably, is a developmental microcosm of so called civilized society itself! And I predict slowly, but surely, it will become less sparkly and more closed in its nature and increasingly policed for its own self interest and with elite groups forming, as is the clear danger with the proposed closed critiquing groups some are proposing… By all means, add a detailed critique group option for all those that wish to share their work, join in and contribute on that level – That sounds like a potentially positive future enhancement and development for the site, if resources allow – but, frankly, by ‘invitation only’ sounds to me like the kiss of death for dverse as I know and love it…
If the problem here is really only limited to those who post their work and do not comment and contribute beyond that, then I believe we have to be very clear and honest, each of us with ourselves, about that…
Firstly, these people are still writing something – Hurray!
Secondly, they are choosing to share it freely with others – Hurray!
Thirdly, they have recognized and valued sufficiently what goes on here to have chosen to share their work on dverse – Hurray!
Fourthly, whilst initially entirely self- interested, there is always a chance they will eventually be seduced by the karma here to be less selfish in their approach…
Do they deserve to be criminalized and shunned – I suggest not –what does that achieve other than exclude the possibility of the fourth outcome above ever happening… I see nothing wrong in a polite reminder from dverse saying it would be nice if they joined in the spirit of things a little more. But should they be told how to behave, or punished & shunned prescriptively, having gone to the trouble of making a creative contribution – certainly not, in my view…
Furthermore, the whole business of comment making is where the honesty from us all needs to come in. In our travels around the site, no doubt we have all read (and maybe (sometimes in a weak moment…) even written?) more than our share of the kind of hurried, superficial comment with is patently no more than a box ticking exercise. Some may do this to curry favour with the site, others maybe in the hope of harvesting more comments for their own work – but this is, of course, of no real value and a waste of everyone’s time – when there has been no genuine effort to engage in the particular poem. And just who is being more disingenuous here? The person who makes no comment, because they lack the honest motivation to do so and/or have nothing real or positive to say about a piece of work, OR instead those who are simply going through the motions – albeit with more cloaked version of their own self interest. Now there’s the rub, I think…
There is also this great myth that there is much to be gained here, by the non commenters – who are supposedly and unfairly hoovering up hundreds of comments and thousands of visits/hits for their site by exploiting the good nature of the dverse community. Clearly, whilst some might just (for a week or two!) believe this might be possible and their cunning plan might work after all! The reality is this never has a chance of happening – unless, of course, their submissions are constantly suffused with work of blinding and totally irresistible genius! If so, then good luck to them, I say! Otherwise, as another commentator said, their own complete lack of generosity ensures responses to their own work soon dry up and consequently they soon shrivel on the vine and effectively police themselves out of it, because the self interest motive has disappeared – Job done!
As for the other issue that of stretched resources – given the heroic efforts of a few and the obvious need for breaks and burn-out etc. – which again are an inevitable consequence of success – then I believe the answer to that has to be that hard, often painful process of letting go of some of the ownership of something you have all put so much heart and soul into bringing to life and now let a broader group help you take the strain… From the correspondence out there this week, it seems like you would have no shortage of willing and suitable volunteers.
Sorry to have rambled on, Brian – but like I said, at the beginning of this message a couple of hours ago now! I do so, only because dverse matters to me… I have tremendous respect for all the work you and Claudia, Tony, Grace, Bjorn and others do and the tremendous inspiring and, in some cases, life changing creative initiative you have created here and dearly want you to go on and on to further success. And you should have no doubt about the value of what you have achieved and the goodwill resulting from it – the comments tonight speak for themselves in that regard.
Like anyone else, my opinion is only one of many – where as I do understand, having brought this baby into the world, your is the primary responsibility for the difficult decisions required to see that it continues to grow as it should… So, I wish you well with that and will, of course, respect and do my best to continue to contribute within whatever framework you decide.
Have a great Christmas and a good rest with the family…
With Best Wishes Scott http://www.scotthastie.com
Scott,
Thank you so much for your considered and thoughtful response to this. Having read what you say, I think that the way ahead is clearer – at least for me. As you have said, one of the most important things about the dVerse community is how generous it is, and that is something we cannot afford to lose if dverse is to continue being what it has become for so many people. Perhaps the team – and especially Brian and Claudia – need to be encouraged to extend that generosity to themselves from time to time, and most especially when life circumstances demand it. My suspicion is that we’re basically giving people – and giving people find it hard to step back and take time to look after themselves; but it’s something we have to do if we are to avoid burning out.
Morning Tony, it is truly a wonderful thing you have created here – open to all. And that works so well, right across the range – from the accomplished, published and highly talented writers, who can help and encourage – through to the most nervous and tentative of novices. And see what sometimes blooms! And how some individuals can grow… And I, for one,wouldn’t want to risk that being spoilt in any way….
So true that it has been the often herculean efforts of Brian & Claudia that have made all this possible and, in some cases, even changed lives… So yes, I agree with you, it is the most unselfish and giving amongst us that are the most precious and whom we need protect and support as best we can. And particularly, if the site continues to grow, as I’m hopeful it will… then perhaps that very issue should be the clear priority for the future? Instead of diverting our good energies into worrying about a few self seeking and self regarding individuals who don’t warrant such attention and will soon come and go, as they will… All the Best to you, Tony – in beautiful Edinburgh – God’s own country on a sunny day! Scott http://www.scotthastie.com
Thanks for this reminder of the intended spirit of OLN. I will spare you the excuses and just say that I’ve stepped up my visiting and commenting again, as my small part in contributing to this community.
i’v had to jump down after getting through about most of monday’s comments, but here’s my where-you-been take 😉
1) i (guiltily) took a blog-cation last year, realized how much it helped me, and will, less guiltily but still somewhat reluctantly, take another this time around – too many places to go to see family, and, after putting up with my absence most the year, it’s the time for me to show up there – so, take the much needed break, enjoy!
2) i try to visit and comment on at least two folk whenever i post, and usually, not always, eventually, end up, after the closing of the prompt seeing a few more familiar folk i miss reading; but :
a) i’m not able to do that consistently anymore
b) i feel guilty when i just visit 2 or so, so an acceptable min of that would be helpful
c) in stretches, i won’t post something to link, but i’ll visit folk’s sites for fun, so saying that’s ok might be helpful for others also
3) in the past, i’ve always said it is always brian and claudia’s say to continue or not, or how to, when to, anything to 😉
i now want to say, please don’t close, tinker with it, change it, modify it, curse it, bless it, but, dVerse has been so useful, so helpful, so full of promise of the promise inside my own self, i would hate to see it go
how ’bout, just evolve? which is what seems to be under discussion
and for that, as per i long standing opinion, for dVerse to continue but in the way that works for the two guys, brian and claudia, who are mutually alternately and undeniably, the heart and mind of this fine site
*
all the best you guys, happy holidays, happy blog-cation 😉