The other day I published a poem that started off an interesting discussion in the comment field on how “difficult” a poem should be to understand Many thanks to Sabio for that, it got me thinking. My thought in the poem was to write about infidelity, but it could in principle be about death also, or eloping or a multitude of other things.
Into the forest
The forest reeks tonight
of sulfur vapors
and his hands are black.
When deep among the trees
the bite of
what has passed.
what wasn’t asked
and time that never died
but just was swallowed by the mire.
She left him for the nothingness
her hair a reckless butterfly
expanding with its lazy wings
in the dressless nights
when summer still was bright.
Mystery and ambiguity is one thing I really love in poetry. One thing I appreciate to receive comments when my words gets a totally new meaning for someone else. On the other hand it should not be so obscure so any proper meaning evades the reader. This is a delicate balance, how hard should we be on our readers?
We all know that it’s not a horse’s head in the nebula, but we can all see that it can look like one.
Something I have to admit that I say things in my poem that I do not completely comprehend myself. Often those part are put there because I like the “sound”, and it could almost be seen as red herrings, but I always look forward to see if others manage to decipher any meaning of those parts, and many times these difficult parts come out as the most appreciated.
I know that many of you write much more clear, and every word make sense. This is very much needed if you want to convey a clear message, and it’s important to be listened to.
So how about you, how obscure can a poem be? Should everything always make sense? Do you appreciate if someone gives your poem a totally new interpretation?
Is it really the obscurity that makes poetry too hard to comprehend for many?
Let’s discuss while I pour up some beer.
dVerse 
there is no limit to how obscure a poem can be IMO, but, at the same time everything has to have a place; nonsense carries an element of beauty that shouldn’t be ignored.
Make sense? lol. Hi Bjorn 🙂
Ha.. yes I love to decipher a cryptic text.. we have some great poet out there.. Personally I love to try to find a hidden meaning.. Nice to have you here Anthony.. how is your Monday?
besides messing up my hair and having to wear bandannas for the next few days, it’s going well… hahah. hbu?
A great evening spent with writing buddies here in Stockholm.. we are getting towards the end of our writing project.. .My first ever short story almost completed…
Nonsense can make sense. Think of some of the passages in Alice in wonderland.
yes, yes, why I said everything should still have a place… I agree, nonsense can totally make sense.
Welcome all.. If you prefer lemonade a Monday evening I have prepared some.. but there is beer and wine also.
I’ve switched to my summertime concoctions of G&T, Campari/orange or elderflower cordial – all year I wait for an excuse to have these and last summer was not hot enough really!
Ah.. soon we can pick elderflower and make our own… that is great with a splash of gin… 🙂
You know how to spoil us, Björn!
🙂 no elderflower yet… though . Actually we planted a red elder tree.. and when that blooms in a couple of years I will be able to offer pink elderflower cordial 🙂
I think it depends on the poet’s purpose in writing. Is he/she writing to convey a message, to express emotions, to entertain, to get a certain response, or to tell a story? The bottom line is that different personalities gravitate toward different types of art. I favor the abstract, absurd, and surreal in both painting and poetry. When I read your poetry, I want you to make me laugh and/or drop my jaw in shock. Be as weird as possible. Grab my attention and twist up my guts, even if I have no clue what you’re talking about. Don’t worry; I’ll figure something out for myself, even if it’s completely unrelated to what you were originally attempting to convey as the poet.
This is a fantastic conversation starter. Excellent topic.
Ha.. yes I could see from your writing that you like what’s cryptic.. I still need find a way to shock you I think 🙂
indeed… I agree with you.
I like writing relatively obscure poetry that makes absolute sense to me. In other words, I know why I chose (almost) each word or image, they are mostly transparent to me. At the same time, lots of these images/words are private motifs, so they often say something different to other people. I like that. I strive to make the reader feel something similar to what I feel or imagine or remember, but I do not need the reader to know exactly what made me write in the first place.
I really like the almost there… sometimes I like to put in things I do not really understand myself… it is not nonsense but probably ambigous 🙂
I like that, Adriana – I often feel like that myself. If the poem is too explicit and ‘autobiographical’, it means it’s not ripe yet. I need to distance myself and be able to generate something that is me and not-me, personal and universal.
Personal and universal! The poem has to have its own life.
Interesting.. I like that.. the tension between the universal and personal is something I always love in a good poem.
What a great topic! And I don’t think I have a clear answer as to which I prefer. Most of the time I would opt for the ambiguous, the opaque, the hinted at, the space which allows me to infer and deduce and make up things on my own. After all, one of my favourite poems is The Jabberwocky, full of made-up words.
But at other times I truly appreciate the crystal clear message, the commitment, simplicity. Yet even so, we are all different and are going to interpret even the simplest and clearest of lines in different ways.
I think I agree,, something I want to be crystal clear (at least to become clear with the last lines of the poem)…. But there are topics (especially in narrative poetry) where I want to have it crystal clear.
Your last statement is very accurate.
ah, yes Marina… I certainly have an appreciation for both.
There are several problems with obscure poetry:
(1) It is a huge turn-off to the average person and thus poetry is largely hated by the average population. But most obscurists don’t care about this , of course.
(2) Obscurity is a great place to hide your writing and idea conveying incompetence. You can declare slop as “poetry”. I’m sure many of you know what I mean. Lots of amateur poets love this sanctuary.
Obscure poetry, if done well, has some benefits:
(1) To the very clever and aware of all sorts of allusions and such — it can be very beautiful.
(2) Some people just like it
(3) It can be fun to write, because it demands less work
At d’Verse poets, we go to each other’s blogs to read, out of courtesy because they read our stuff. But sometimes, I just get burned out reading a bunch of fluffy, self-indulgent, obscur stuff. I go back to hating poetry.
So occasionally I blurt it out, wondering, “Do these people know that a lot of us dislike this stuff?” But on poetry blogs, critical comments are largely disdained, so I doubt they know.
I have learned to like a little bit of poetry over the years — only because others have actually taken the effort to write for their readers instead of for themselves.
Great to have you here Sabio.. you where the one that had me writing this.. maybe we should aim at making obscurity more clear and vivid… and you have a point that poets write for poets.. I have always found that, and there is a barrier to start to love it. I will make an effort to be more clear, and just leave an option for ambiguity. I think my poem for tomorrow will be crystal clear.
I think you understand my points, Björn. I am saying people SHOULD avoid obscurity, I am just saying lots of us dislike it, and pointing out its obvious pitfalls.
I really like your skill with words but feel they are wasted when I read your obscure stuff. [again, just one reader’s POV]
And I liked your comment enough to bring it here.. so with discussions like this I have a very thick skin.
I completely agree with you that often writers feel they have to be obscure to be ‘poetical’ or ‘highbrow’ or ‘taken seriously’ or for whatever reason they choose to write like that. A poem can be very open and simple seeming (think Blake, for instance) and still be open to many interpretations – does that make it obscure, or is it just that we readers are filling in any available spaces with our own experiences?
Blake is a great example.. what does he really mean with the sick rose for instance.
@ MarinaSofia
Oh, I totally agree. I try to write stuff that can be taken at many levels. There are a few readers here that actually can read the other levels I allude to — they are special readers. But when most people totally miss the feeling or content I am trying to convey, I assume it is my fault.
Yes, a story or poem can be clear and understandable at many levels — that is beautiful.
I love various levels of meaning and deep, rich imagery.
And at the risk of losing friends, I never underestimate the intelligence or understanding of readers or other writers. Some people do not care for obscurity or layers or symbolism, that does not mean they can’t understand or appreciate, just it is their personal preference. I like the movies of Ingmar Bergman. My husband likes Dirty Harry movies. The man is beyond intelligent and insightful. He just has his own preferences.
Yes, I agree about personal preferences. It has nothing to do with intelligence.
At the risk of losing a few friends and gaining numerous enemies, I need to say that I mostly agree with what Sabio says. Not all obscure poetry is good and obscurity is not a value per se. As readers, we need to be able to at least roughly identify the situation, the persona and/or the images. If I have to guess, I often feel it is more work than pleasure.
I will never let anything like that affect friendship Gabriella.. and I agree that obscurity per se is not a value.. and maybe we try to hide our thoughts a little bit too much sometimes.
@ Gabriella
Isn’t it sad that such a caveat must be made: “Sorry to agree with Sabio and risk losing friend and gaining enemies.” Ironically, the lovely sweet poetry blogs are some of the most dangerous places to be honest.
I am sorry if it can be understood as that.. I think that mostly we all agree with you Sabio.. which is why I brought it too the pubtalk.. (and I think I know how to improve my poem)..
Sabio, I was being a little facetious with my disclaimer ad I hope that not too many people will be hurt by honesty. However, maybe because poetry is a very personal exercise, people may be hurt when no hurt was meant.
Oh, I understood Gabriella — NP. I hope this did let people think about the false valorization of vagueness.
I always think of The Emperor of Ice Cream….not many $100 words in it, no odd word manipulations, no strange symbols but…certainly one of the most intriguing poems written. Two stanzas….but one rich with layers, meanings….it has to be read several times and thought a out and returned to. I have sat in aroom with 20 people and heard 20 different takes on it…basic but with variants. I think it is up to the writer to write as the muse, message, life experience, vision dictates. It is up to us as readers to determine if we only want to read on the surface and move on or, if something in it resonates, to read more often and dig deeper.
If something is too obscure, people may miss the message. While I did not think of adultery with poem Bjorn, I did think of there being loss and regret after a bad decision was made. Years from now, 20 people in a room may come up with 20 variants on the theme. I tend to be forthright in my writing, direct. If Ihave a clear message, there is o guessing. I get close to vague in my haiku. But that is a poem from a different aesthetic and culture.
We can’t take into account the different cultures, life experiences, etc. of our readers. I say write as you feel it in your gut. Don’t be obscure or wordy to try to be cool or sound brainy or highbrow. Be true to self and vision.
When I prepared this text I was looking for a quote from Basho, where he said that a portion of his haiku was unclear even to himself.. so a haiku because of it briefness can be more obscure.. more left out at least. Maybe writing long poems really obscure is a challenge. I think there are moment when there are riddles in my writing I have not completely understood or even intended.. I like what you write about the purpose about being obscure.. and I agree there has to be a reason.
Like you, sometimes the words come to me and after I finish writing and then re-read, I have to shake my head and wonder, is that what I really meant? It is as if the words take control and fly my imagination plane someplace unexpected. Haiku are photographs, not movies, as it were. So much is captured, not spun out…you have to look deeply and search. I also think in our society nowadays, people want to be spoonfed, to have e erything “transparent”. They want text message poems. Not all, but many. Poetry is not the taste of everyone but then, neither is fiction about dystopian societies, serial killers, slapstick comedy. Unless I write for a prompt, my poetry is what happens from my inside.
I agree,,, there are so many things you can love in poetry, and not all fiction is appreciated either.. not all music is loved.. but I guess that what Sabio meant is that there is a big audience that simply find poetry impossible to understand.
Just like some art (grin). The only time I get complex is in my cooking. But a friend said she never like poetry until she read mine because it was “conversational” and easy paced. After about a 10 hour conversation about haiku, mujo, aware no aware, and wabi sabi, she finally “got” the haiku and enjoyed. I think it depends too on how far people want to go into a thing.
I think you are right.. a couple of week we talked about the Metaphors of Tomas Tranströmer, and his poetry is actually very easy to read, even if he uses extremely advanced metaphors. So I guess it takes a lot of work and talent to make the obscure crystal clear..
Just like Wallace Stevens wrote of death, financial poverty, intranscience, loneliness…in simple words with an everyday symbolism that became transformed by his unique vision. It is the same priciple and I think, is truly an art just as Transtromer did.
Interesting discussion here, Bjorn. I must admit that I am a fan of poetry that is understandable than I am of obscure poetry. I like to try to come up with an intelligent comment on a poem, but if I have no idea what the poet is writing about it is very hard. I can always tell when other people have not understood a poem either as there will be a lot of ‘high praise’ which really says nothing. There will be comments such as ‘one of your best,’ ‘wonderful write,’ ‘exceptional,’ ‘great metaphor,’ etc. A lot of praise for a poem that, for the reader, probably has no meaning.
I do not mind a little bit of obscurity, but if the poem is not really understandable I wonder what purpose the writing serves for the writer (who perhaps doesn’t know what it means either) or the reader (who struggles to find an intelligent comment to make or resorts to meaningless platitudes).
Don’t we wish to communicate something with our readers? I would hope so.
Oh yes we wish to communicate.. I do all the time, and that is why I often try to write what I have understood from the poem. It is not always right, but I think that I have only been totally off more than a few times… but it do happens. Maybe I like ambiguity more.. if it is too clear I tend to be a little disinterested… like a book where all threads are tied up..
Ha, ha, Bjorn. I am the opposite. I like clarity more than obscurity. If something is really obscure, I am more disinterested than if I read a clear poem that has some kind of story or meaning that I can figure out. But, alas, it is good to have readers who are looking for / at different things in poetry.
Indeed.. that is what good… and there are occasions when I write clear too 🙂
@ Mary,
I too find it very hard to comment on many poems here at d’Verse. They are so flowery, or so obscure that I can not think of anything to say.
I agree that reading the comments can be sadly hilarious — you can tell that readers have no clue what is said because they don’t even discuss it. Instead they choose one phrase to comment on or just give general vacuous pats on the back. To me this is sad. No writer who wants to improve should seek this blog for feedback on writing. Nor any other poetry blog I know.
People often skim poems here to drop a quick comment so that their poem can get red. I can tell by how comments can be so far off.
Sabio, sometimes I will choose a line or image because I really like it and will say so. It does not mean that I do not get the poem.
I do not mind flowery really, if I can understand the poem. I think many of us have ‘flowery’ thoughts on occasion. Again, that is a personal thing. I do sometimes find a part of a poem to comment on, something I really like; and my liking of that part is authentic. Sometimes I spend a lot of time phrasing a comment about just what I like.
And yes, there are those who do skim. I think this happens everywhere. Truthfully, I myself find a lot of excellent comments on my poems. Ha, I think that is because I write things that are most often not obscure. Smiles. People can relate to my poems…usually.
There is a fear of hurting people and therefore the feedback can be a little too polite at times. Not just here, on all poetry forums. That’s why a ‘live’ (physical) critiquing group can be so important too – if you trust the participants and are open to honest feedback. In my experience, many people aren’t, even when they claim they are.
And I have to admit that I do pick out certain images or lines that really work for me – sometimes they may be the only bit that I really understand or like, but does the poet need to be told that bluntly? Maybe not. Maybe if I just say: ‘these lines are particularly strong’, it shows that the poem can be built around that.
This brought to mind a discussion I had with blogger Lorna about my Andy Warhol poem. She finds art a total turn-off and in the course of our conversation, I found it was because she had a professor who dissed her interpretation of a piece of art. How sad. I told her when I was a docent at the Nevada Museum of Art, I always encouraged the kids to interpret when they saw in the way they saw it. There were no wrong answers.
That’s how I find it should be with poetry. I may well see something (or, more likely, feel something) in a poem that the writer did not intend…but based on my own personal experience, I interpret it the way I do. Everyone’s perception is valid.
There are times, however, and no doubt I’ve been guilty of this, that a poem is skimmed and the point is way off base. I’ve seen someone read a tragic poem as a comedy and the comment hurt me (it wasn’t my poem).
I also value it when I run across an honest comment if someone truly didn’t “get it.” Often times the writer may give then add a little process note.
My own poetry doesn’t tend to be obscure, but there are times when I love to play with words and see what happens, as in writing poems based on things like wordles. I’ve even gone back and read a few I couldn’t figure out after a period of time.
I agree with Sabio that poetry that is too obscure can be a turn-off to those who are not immersed in the genre–but, in general, that’s not our audience. I personally do not care for poetry that is so erudite that you have to have a PhD and a dictionary to figure it out–sure, a few difficult words are good but when the whole thing is like that–I tune out.
Victoria, you mentioned someone reading a tragic poem as a comedy and that the comment hurt you. I have sometimes observed this too. A person writes about a painful subject, and someone says ‘wonderful write’ and moves on. I think we have to be careful when we comment that we make appropriate comments.
Perhaps we should do what you talked about — let a poet know that we don’t get the poem. I don’t ever do this, though there are often poems that I don’t get. I try to find a phrase or a section or a part I do understand and reflect on that, but the truth is I don’t understand the poem. I always struggle to know what to do then.
In cases like that I always try to be very open and write exactly what I have understood… but I almost never declare a poem funny unless it’s extremely clear that it is laughing matter.
I most often can find an image or phrase that I like. I agree though–generic comments like the ‘wonderful write’ one can seem empty if there’s no meaningful comment to go with it.
I saw your discussion on the Andy Warhol poem.. and painted art can be much the same.
Obviously too many difficult words are a challenge for me, as English is a second language, but I do have an app installed in my browser, so I can simply mark a word and get the translation…
One thing that I find troublesome is when a poet uses ‘he’ or ‘she’ or ‘they’ in a poem and nowhere is it identified who is being talked about. And sometimes as I read a poem I try to figure out how many ‘he’s’ or ‘she’s’ a poem is about, or is each ‘he’ the same person? I like to be able to figure out WHO is being written about. There should be a noun somewhere in the poem that these ‘he’s’ and ‘she’s’ and ‘him’ and ‘her’ refer back to. Really the reader should not have to continually guess.
I actually prefer to write poem in second person.. (even more than first actually).. and I think I woul rewrite some of my poems like that.
Do you mean that you will write your poems using ‘you’?
If so, I would still want to know just who the ‘you’ was, unless it is the reader.
I like using ‘you’ but then, I don’t mind the ambiguity of the subject either. The reader can fill in the blank.
I can and do appreciate luscious phrases and words and a poem doesn’t have to be explicit but at least carry a telling mood or feel. I prefer some hints, symbolism, metaphors or nuances at the least. My favorite poems are those that are not obscure and that in some way I can relate, nod my head and say, yes!.
I can admire creativity and imagination but if the poem is too Gertrude Steinish I’m lost.
Ah. but Gertrude Stein is way too obscure for me too… I think that is way beyond what we are talking here. We did a prompt on her poetry a while ago.
That’s good to know. I don’t see the point in writing something that can’t be understood and yet on the other hand, Jabberwocky is delightful and I have no clue what it means.
I think jabberwocky can be understood on one level…
I tend to write more concretely — It’s just the way my mind words — though I have written a few more obscure poems. On those I was surprised (but not bothered) by the comments in which readers read into the poem something very different from what I had been thinking when I wrote it. I do enjoy reading more obscure poetry sometimes, especially if I can make a connection with it. But there is a limit to what I enjoy in the realm of the obscure and abstract. I’m not sure where the line is, but I know when a poet is on the other side. Peace, Linda
Personally I love when the reader finds something else in the poem than I had intended. Do you like it too Linda?
Yes, I do. It shows how dynamic language can be.
So do I.
I too am often pleasantly surprised by what hidden meanings the readers uncover in my poems. Unintentional.. and yet, after a while, it feels like perhaps they were there in the unconscious all along and the readers were more ‘right’ in their interpretation than I was in my intention. Although I agree with Victoria that there is no single ‘right’ interpretation as long as you are paying close enough attention to the spirit of the poem.
I rarely like poetry.. on the first read… And some of the poetry.. I like the most.. are after 10 to 15 reads… in succession…
Poetry.. can be hard for me to understand.. but the challenge of the most obscure… is worth the most to me..
AS it allows me to grow as a human being.. to see the greater and different perceptions.. of the Unique Universes of others..
Or to imagine.. and create.. perceiving.. realities of my own.. in my own Unique Universe…
The practice of imagination and creativity.. is the greatest continual growth for me.. and truly it takes practice..
The lesson for me.. is always the practice.. unto itself.. as journey..:)
I think i agree that poetry might require many reads.. and you discover different layers each time… but there are cases when you still want to be crystal clear…
You put that beautifully – sometimes I read different things into a poem each time I read it, depending what stage I’m at in life etc. I like a poem that gradually unveils itself…
Questions for those who are reading this thread:
1. What do you do when you read a poem that you really do not understand?
2. If someone reads your poem & does not understand it, what would you prefer they do? Would you prefer they say ‘wonderful poem’ and move on? Would you prefer them to admit in their comment that they just do not understand your poem?
I actually love when people tell me that they do not understand.. and that is actually what this is about… when I do not understand hmm I try to explain what I do understand.. but maybe I should be clearer that I do not really get it. good questions.
Mary:
(1) I do one of these three things when I don’t understand a poem:
(a) skip it
(b) comment on some tiny think I liked (often begrudgingly)
(c) state that I have no clue what they wrote
(d) Try to guess what they mean
(2) I love criticism — tell me what you like or dislike. I hate fluff and platitudes
Sabio, I have been known to skip poems for the same reason. I also have commented on some part that has resonated with me. I have never yet said I have no clue what the poem is about….perhaps I will try that sometime. I do sometimes try to guess what someone means. Sometime someone ahead of me has it figured out. Smiles.
Mary,a girl after my own heart! I don’t just skip poems I don’t understand, I skip poets, too.
If I thought that I must write cryptic, obscure poetry, I would give up altogether!
Ha.. thank you for not avoiding me.. I try to inject a little bit of cryptic most of the time 🙂
butI usually understand yours!
🙂 i’m not sure I always do understand it all myself.
But, Bjorn, I am still wondering why a poet would write something that they themselves don’t understand? This concept confuses me. If a poet does not understand their poem, how can a reader get anything meaningful from it?
I am not talking about the whole poem… there are details that I might add.. they could be a little bit like red herrings or some extra spice you sprinkle on your dish.. It could be for sound or meter… it could be an adjective that create a tension. 🙂 But it is not that I do it always, and i see other poets do the same…
Mary, I try to read the poem several times and see what I get out of it, to dissect it. If I still don’t get it, I will ask the writer to please explain to me. I always try to be courteous about asking and ask in a way that doesn’t sound critical to the person. Sometimes they tell me what the poem is about, sometimes they ignore me.
If I write something someone doesn’t understand, I hope the person will ask me and ask me with the same courtesy I would extend to them. I have had this happen and have answered in away that would not make them feel stupid or they had missed the point.
I like constructive criticism – such as, you used “black” about 30 times. did you mean to do that? It may be more solid if you found another word. or, you added two syllables to the line….or, the first and last stanzas are solid but the middle one leaves me wanting more….that sort of criticism.
for example, I criticism I consider a commenter should not make, is when poetic license is being used, as in “dew falls”, “skies weep”, “flowers smile”…..to be told that what I wrote isn’t possible and then to give me mini lecture on the process of rain, flowers, dew, the commenter is assuming I am ignorant rather than recognizing a poetic device. If the device isn’t effective or over done in the poem, that is a good criticism. or saying a poem is mediocre and unmemborable…that is just an opinion and not a true criticism….
I like honesty but I also think appropriateness of a comment is important. I would rather someone be honest and say, well written but not my kind of poem…that is honest and not fluff. And not all poems are liked by everyone.
Thanks, Toni, for your thorough response. I do see your courteous responses, and I definitely agree that whatever we say to a poet we must maintain the courteous. Honesty, as well as appropriateness of comment, is indeed what one should strive for. I like the idea of telling someone that it was well written but not their kind of poem.
Very thoughtful thread here – because a lot of comment is personal opinion – I like this, or this doesn’t work for me. Which is fine, but it doesn’t tell me really how to make my poem better. I love comments of the type ‘this word doesn’t work in the context’ or ‘the alliteration is too much in this line’ or even ‘I think you are talking about this, is that true?’ – because it gives me a chance to figure out where I’m going wrong, or being too obscure, or explain myself or rewrite.
Having said that, though, I have to admit that the very encouraging, warm comments from the dVerse group coaxed me out of my shell at a time when I was very nervous about showing my work to anyone.
So perhaps different strokes for different folks? Maybe those of us who don’t mind more robust criticism should put a notice to that effect on our poem or blog?
I like to know if they don’t understand something and perhaps will even give an explanation. I’m trying now to comment on comments, which I didn’t do in the past when I had to read more when hosting dVerse. Time is often a big enemy in doing thoughtful reading.
So true, Victoria. Thoughtful reading/commenting does take a lot of time.
I love the energy of this discussion.. we learn to know each other, and this is a topic that shows both how similar and diverse we are in poetry.. I especially like the last discussion.. Now I need to go to bed. I will get by tomorrow again.
I think a reading of dRules on commenting may help put some things into perspective. What Sabio terms as fluff, is merely within the guidelines of dRules. There are other communities where harsher or critical criticism is the norm. If I ask for some criticism, I like what is constructive and improving for my writing. Too often the other kind of criticism can become snarky or condescending. When I wrote about The Galloping Groundhog, i had one reader tell me it made no sense, had no meat to it, didn’t have a proper beginning or ending, was stupid. Helloooo, it was a silly poem just for fun. I was not trying to re-write The Inferno. This was criticism that was both unkind and actually, stupid in its own way. Assuming a writer has liitle intelligence, expertise, or knowlege tells more about the commenter than the writer. I think if we write, again, true to our vision and heart, that is what is important. Writing merely to impress is not true art. Writing the truth within oneself, whether it is about flowers or poverty, is the key and the true art.
Those kind of comments are neither constructive nor thoughtful. It’s enough to stop someone from trying, especially if they are new to poem-ing. Too sad. Like what happened to Lorna as I discussed above.
Exactly. I am a tough old bird and not being a shrinking flower, while I am courteous, I will stand up for myself. it is sad indeed when someone’s muse is insulted – not just discouraged. I have read poems that were terrible (including my own) but I admired and applauded the effort and encouraged. That is what I like about the dVerse community – the encouragement. Call it warm and fuzzy, call it fluff, call it soft….I call it being kind and encouraging. And to do it to the extent to drive away is nothing short of criminal.
I think that is exactly how to do it.. I have now been in a process of being edited.. Which came as a shock for me.. Hones and straightforward, but it took me weeks to get back to responding., but it felt great afterwards.
Ha, just saw this after I’d added my tuppence worth above about the lovely warm welcome I felt I was given when I joined dVerse and how important this has been for my development. It’s far too easy to be too critical of other people’s work (and end up snarky, condescending, domineering), I agree.
I agree. Sadly, we really know nothing about each other, really, or what is going on beyond the surface. I myself need to do a better job.
Comment removed… this was a personal interaction.
Personal comment, removed by bartender.
I recently attended a poetry workshop where the moderator indicated that a truly good poem means one thing at the “surface” level, but also has at least one other layered meaning, and often more layers that, while not necessarily intended by the poet, are “found” by the readers. I most ofen am not too good at inserting layers, but I think that I’m starting to get a feel for it. My “water” series has a surface layer as well as a metaphorical layer to each of the poems….and as the writer, I can only hope that my readers see something deeper than the surface, and I have been pleasantly surprised a few times when someone has commented on something that I had not thought of, but still completely within the spirit of what I had written.
Bryan, that is what I strive for, but I think it’s important that the first layer is clear and understandable… Which is where I sometimes miss.
I prefer mystery rather than obscurity. It gives more to ponder on.
That is an excellent distinction!
Thank you, Toni.
True, Gabriella. Mystery is good. Obscurity (for me) is another matter. Smiles.
Ah. I think I like that distinction..
“Mystery”, “Obscurity”, “Vagueness”. Hard to describe the borders of those. But the measure for me is: “Do the readers walk away feeling satisfied that the poem said something to them.” Another measure, which I use here on d’Verse, is “How many times do I have to read the poem to even begin to get something out of it.” If I read it 3 times, and still don’t get anything, calling it “mysterious” seems a euphemism.
I love “mysterious” too — and actually like obscure and vague when used in light touches. I don’t like reading a poem and saying to myself, “What the heck was that?”
I prefer the mystery & a bit of ambiguity in a poem ~ I also appreciate layered effect that Bryan mentioned above, when on second reading, the words take on a different meaning ~
As to Mary’s question, when I don’t understand the poem, I comment on the part that I like best or admire that has the most meaning for me. I try not to go overboard with my comments, specially when I think the poem sounds and looks awkward to me. I see this often when there is a word list, and poets cramp all the words together when they don’t make sense at all ~
See you tomorrow for Poetics ~ Happy Monday ~
Yes, I often try to comment on what I like best if I don’t understand a poem as well.
My struggle sometimes is whether I should/should not just say straight out “I don’t get your poem.” I have never done that…this discussion makes me wonder if that would be a good thing.
I have simply said, I admire your poem. I don’t wish to sound insulting or rude, but I am not quite sure if I completely understand. Could you please tell me the meaning/history/story behind your poem?……and usually they respond, I re-read with that in mind and let them know how their explanation greatly added to my enjoyment of their poem and opened the understanding. .. we all have our ways to ask, this is just mine.
I have received comments back when I have tried to explain that it takes away some experience.
I only explain if asked. I like people to use their imagination. It is always good to get thoughts i had not thought of before. If people totally miss the point, I blame myself and go back take a different look and how I could make it more clear. Lol, telling people, this is about the rape of the envirnment for example….spoils the movie! I am always happy to explain if asked.
Oh I don’t think it takes away from an experience really. I think when something is explained a bit a reader can look at a poem with fresh eyes (knowing the backstory) and may find himself/herself nodding, finding that now he/she DOES understand. I do like a bit of backstory when necessary; but it is not necessary to have a backstory so long that it detracts from the poem.
I have done both.. and some readers like a backstory others do not.. I do different all the time…. 🙂
I myself am always impressed and wish my English usage was as good as yours. I think, for myself, we Americans are sloppy in our grammar and usage.
Then there is the situation when a poem doesn’t ‘speak’ to me, possibly through no fault of its own, but just because I’m not in the mood for it at the time, or I don’t have the time to read it several times etc. I struggle sometimes to give them the attention (especially the repeated attention) that they deserve, hence my comments may nto be as well thought out or as valuable as I would like them to be.
I hear you on this! Ha, that is why I like more clarity in a poem than obscurity. I like a poem that I can read once or twice & understand without having to struggle to find something meaningful to say. I remember in school when I studied someone such as Whitman or Sandburg. Part of the study was to analyze in great detail various parts. Time-consuming, but these were master poets & I was trying to get a good grade. (Smiles) In the blogosphere I do not have the time to struggle to find meaning.
So correct.. the time is limited. 🙂
Loved reading your thoughts, Bjorn. I agree there should be a balance–if for no other reason than to be respectful of my reader. But I also find, as you said, that sometimes what I write simply “sounds good”; may be a red herring; and I may not know exactly what my subconscious was up to. Great post.
I think it turned out a little bit on how to review poetry which is a very good topic.
Yes indeed.
I think about this a lot! Particularly as I write in an incredibly clear way (I think), almost too clear, too simple. I am much more verbose outside of poetry, so I like to be clear and brief with my verse. However, this also makes me feel inadequate as a poet sometimes – because the layering and complexity, obscurity or innuendo in the narrative of many modern poets’ work seems to be necessary to the craft of poetry…
I suppose we are all insecure and secure to varying degrees – and this comes through in our lines. Sometimes clearly, sometimes mysteriously, and sometimes we are unfathomable!
I think you should write the style with which you are comfortable. I too am clear with my poetry. I’ve tried to add more layers or complexity but then, I fall back into my style! I often wonder if poets, back in the day, thought about such things or if they wrote as their thoughts and visions ran….except for such structured forms as a sonnet, for example.
I agree with this. “To thine own self be true.” Of course, some of us may have multiple personalities…not in the pathological way, though.
That is true! I have my southern personality, the Japanese, the lady and the warrior.
This is why I kind of crush on Sabio, the conversations take an interesting turn.
I never think my poems are that obscure, but they often seem to be misunderstood, when I read the comments. I actually don’t mind obscurity for obscurity ‘ sake, because I think that it can be fun to play. I think there is more a feel that I get that will turn me off. But it’s a hard feeling to explain. I think if it feels pretentious, then I start to zone out and lose interest. If I am reading one of the blogs that I regularly visit and this happens, I would send an email asking about it because I have developed a relationship with the writer.
When I’m participating in a dVerse prompt, though, I don’t do that. If I completely zone out before I finish, I may try to skip to the comments and see if I can find a thread that I can use to reread it by. Usually, I just go to another blog, though, because I need to comment to meet the reciprocation requirement.
If I read a poem and it is nice, then I usually give a one or two word supportive comment. These are poems that I don’t dislike, that I think I understand, but don’t necessarily move me. It’s nice.
If I hate it because of the content, then I curse at the writer while shaking my first at my screen, but I don’t comment because I don’t want to troll.
If I love it, then it had moved me whether for beget or worse and then I leave a rather gushy comment.
I don’t usually leave any constructive comments or criticisms here, because I’ve gotten the impression over the years that that’s not really what’s wanted. I think what’s wanted here is more support and affirmation of what works.
On my blog, I’ll delete your comment if it’s trolling, but otherwise, I’m open for comments, and I posted an email on the site in case anyone wants further discussion.
Wow. I wrote more than I meant to. Thanks for the cool topic and chance to discuss, Bjorn! (Sorry, I still haven’t found the umlaut on my phone. )
A very thoughtful comment Heidi.. I do not get so many conversations on my blog, sometimes it can bloom, but that’s why I wanted to take this discussion here. I think if a poem is misunderstood it can be one of two things, either the reader has not spent a lot of time to read your poem, or they have actually misunderstood it which actually is hidden constructive criticism.
Thanks Björn! (Finally found it! )
And this is heidi. I keep forgetting that my name isn’t on my gravatar.
So many good comments here. I would have liked to the the “Like” comment turned on without having to say more. Could that happen, Admin?
I second Victoria!
I am mostly a storyteller, but there are times when one must have a knowledge of (or experience in) topics like drug use (I indulged in the 70s, LA) or jazz performance or even sexual abuse. Interesting that the only time I get criticism is when I talk politics. For me, political views can be fertile ground for poetry, yet polarizing, because there is inherent critique of one leader or another, one “side of the aisle” (hate that term, but there it is) or the “other.” I write so far from the Left that people get defensive, but I say, if the POETRY stands, that’s good. If it ruffles feathers, that’s OK too. One needn’t agree with the viewpoint to find worth in the content or style.
Anyone want to talk about this sticky wicket? Will check back,.
Oh, Amy Barlow Liberatore here. My moniker leaves too much room for weird nicknames like “Sharpsie” or “Li’l”!!
Hey Amy! I’ve been writing more political stuff lately, but I haven’t gotten much response. I did write one a while back for one of Bjorn’s prompts about Cliven Bundy that I think had a small disagreement in the comments.
heidi
Ha, that might just show the igorance of us who live in other parts of the world, and therefore feel unable to comment (also I feel it’s sort of rude to comment on the politics of another country where you can’t vote or don’t live in)! I love political poems usually. Even if the politicial views are not the same as mine, it can lead to an interesting debate (one would hope a debate and not an argument).
Amy, I think the political question in poetry will always make some people angry. To some extent I think that’s natural. I write a lot of political poems, but maybe more often in show not tell style. But I have also noted that there are quite a lot of sexism even in the poetry circles, giving women a harder time.
I do not think obscure poetry takes less skill. I think it takes more skill to analyze, but the reality is in our 140 character world, we would rather have it easy. I can not listen to a JayZ song and not appreciate the stacked metaphors. Sure its often hidden behind a beat, but if you take the time to break it down, there can be so much more there.
I have read plenty of unobscure shit poetry too. People hide behind poetic tricks such as end rhyme, or forced rhyme even in that.
When I read there are different things I look at:
Mechanics – what tools did they use well.
Story telling – do they convey a moment or a story
Feeling – Do they convey a feeling.
Relation – How does what I just read relate to my life, have I ever felt or experienced it.
If not, can I still appreciate it?
Does it need more time for me to understand it than the average 46 seconds most people take to read a poem?
I think there are many ways you can leave feedback, on even th most obscure, or unobscure.
Critique – well, most people cringe at that one. If you are going to critique, be specific. If I am going to say something it should not be a generalization, but be practical. Maybe a little more practical than “Never touch a pen again.”
Ha.
Of course, I dont waste much time thinking about this if the person is not engaging in the conversation – commenting back, or making an effort. Why waste my time.
Very good advises here. The systematic approach is very good. Of course we want it to be part of a dialogue…
So well said. Obscurity is not a quality which shows poetic skill, but a little mystery and magic is. If the poem resonates with me on some level, or if I appreciate the skill that went into the making of it, I can give feedback. I am nervous about giving critique because I don’t know how it will be received, no matter how specific (for example: too many adjectives in that line detract from the strength of your nouns or verbs).
I think that is a solid critique line marina, it gives the writer something to think about.
Ah, if MarinaSofia made that criticism (or suggestion or observation), responses could vary such as:
(a) grateful
(b) disagree and tell why
(c) say, “Hmmm, thanks, I will think about it
(d) get angry and say “How dare you question, I have a Ph.D.”
(e) get angry and belittle the question asker as having personality defect
Because (d) and (e) exist — question asking does not occur. Poetry is treated as sacred. People tip-toe. So if you want to improve your poetry or get honest feedback on your writing, a poetry blog is not the place to do it.
Oh, I agree with you. A public blog – most of what you will get is rot your teeth candy in the way of comments. People are way to concerned with how you “see” them – especially when you can’t see them and all they have to rely on is public perception of them through the comments.
Because d) and e) exist – well there are always going to be those that think they have it all together. I can not control how they take the feedback, I can only give it. I can’t control if they use the feedback. They have to want it.
I could care less if they disagree. They may know things I dont know (like why they used a particular poetic device) – or they may feel like they know everything already – and I am fine leaving them in that illusion.
I blog more for the conversation than I do to get published — been there, done that, and it’s not all it is cracked up to be. It proves very little. Certainly not if you can write.
I agree that it does not take less skill to write an obscure (actually I like Gabriella’s word ‘mystery’ better) poem. Sometimes when I read a poem with ‘mystery,’ there are various parts of the poem that really speak to me, and I can admire the way that the poet has put these parts together & used words & made connections. I can admire the poetic touches, the theme, etc. Poems with ‘mystery’ can be composed of lots of interesting elements, and I recognize that. That being said, I still have a harder time making a relevant comment on a poem with lots of obscurity/mystery than on a poem I can relate to on a first or second read.
All in all, this discussion makes one realize that there are ‘different strokes for different folks’ in writing; and also what a person likes in poetry various from individual to individual as well. I guess, in the end, there is a place for both obscurity/mystery AND clarity. Smiles!!
There is another word that I like a lot and that is ambiguity. I do not think any poet strive to be obscure, but injecting some ambiguity or mystery is what I like to do.. alas it can become obscure when it’s read.
I’ve ALWAYS realized there are different strokes for different folks. Depending on the day, I sometimes slip and tell the writer what this ONE reader’s impression or criticism is. Some folks, like Björn, handle any comment superbly, others (as is obvious) don’t.
Being pointed out, as I have in this thread, I will probably skip many more poems now — and probably to the joy of the writers themselves.
🙂
I think a lot is how and what you address.. Obviously writing in a second language I will make errors.. Those I correct immediately. I have done revisions and presented both side by side.
To my mind poetry is like any art and perception lies in the beholder. Certainly the poet may have a theme or message but I don’t think it matters if someone misses that message and finds something else entirely. And that is because all art communicates at many levels – rational, intuitive, mental, physical, emotional etc., and whether it is a painting, a poem or a piece of sculpture, all that matters is that it communicates with the observer.
I do think that where a poem has been written to be clever and is obscure because of that, it may be too obscure to communicate in any way – although who is to say.
I think I have rarely seen a poem that is to obscure in any way.. for me I find some poetry “flat”, it tells the obvious, it does not surprise or has no tension. But I think in many cases it can be the fault of me as a reader as well as in the poet. I like what X wrote.. that is something that is really the essence of how I would appreciate poetry.
I would agree and also return to my point, that art is for the observer to interpret and yes, all art can be interpreted or appreciated by someone.
These are all truisms of course. What I am addressing is what these two poets say:
“I favor poems that keep the obstacles between you and [the reader] to a minimum “
–Ted Kooser (The Poetry Home Repair Manual)
“Most people ignore most poetry because most poetry ignores most people.”
–Adrian Mitchell(poet)
Too bad there are not buttons on a poem: Spoke to Me, Didn’t speak to me.
Then a person could click without giving away their identity and the writer could get feedback from the real world about how their poetry is received.
“Things that are different, scare people. They don’t want their apple cart knocked over – or their (holy) worldview disturbed. It stirs up too much dust from neglect.”
– X
Just cause it has quotes around it does not make it true. And -isms are dangerous and divisive.
First and foremost, poetry, like all creative expression is art which is fulfilling for the poet or creator. The greatest art is an expression of Self and whether or not it is valued by others is largely irrelevant. At least in any real sense.
I realise if you are trying to make a living from your creative work it is more complicated but the greatest art comes from the Soul and the Self and success and talent are not synonymous and never have been and never will be.
The creative expression is no greater or lesser because it is liked or not liked or if it speaks to many or few.
Sometimes I write a poem because I love the sound the words make across the mind and voice. I once wrote a poem based on words that I thought were beautiful-sounding and described those sounds with more words. That was an exercise for myself to fulfill that need for sound.
I recently wrote a poem about travelling towards home. I used glimpses of memories and interpretations of three separate places in my life. It turned out to be one of my more obscure poems and was interpreted by others in many ways. I didn’t mind all the different interpretations because it meant that the reader was engaged.
I nice approach to poetry.. and also to find meaning in others… the idea of blending different times sounds interesting.. hmm.
It was quite fun. I have quite a bit of training in linguistics thanks to my Bachelors in Speech Pathology so I am very fascinated with the way words sound and feel.
Sometimes poetry is all about sounds and pushing the boundaries and experimentation. I have days when I want poems that are very clear and full of meaning, others when I’m more in a playful mood. It’s like what we want to eat or drink or watch or read changes from day to day, depending on our mood and circumstances. But that’s why I sometimes feel a bit sorry that some of the poems I am reading on OLN for instance don’t always find me in the right mood for them at that particular point in time. And sadly, the truth is we seldom have time to return to them when we might be in the more receptive mood. That’s when owning a volume of poetry comes in surprisingly handy, I find…
Very true. I recently bought a few collections of Mary Oliver. Some really amazing poems in there.
Great discussion today! Truly, if anyone is coming in at the end of this discussion, I encourage him/her to go back through and read the whole thing! Very interesting subject, Bjorn. Thank you.
Thanks Björn — fantastic job at facilitating. You too Mary, great job.
BTW, I have suggested before turning on the “follow comments by email” option on the blog. It took me 45 minutes to go through the comments again to find any replies to my comments. I won’t have time to do that again, so any replies to me will be missed. Turning on that function would facilitate dialogue for this sort of post. But it would also fill a mail box, eh? 😉
On WordPress you can see automatically any follow-up comments/replies to your comments. I don’t know how that works for other blogging platforms, though…
I really enjoyed this discussion too – we got slightly sidetracked from ‘obscurity’ to ‘commenting’ but both aspects are very important and need some debating.
Oh, and by the way, I just came across this brief description of a technique known as the Critical Response Process, for providing feedback to artists/writers and also for clarifying meaning/intention/ambiguity. Thought it fitted in very well with what we discussed yesterday/today.
I do like some mystery…often beginning the poem going one place, and end it in another…or what seems another, though the two places are really one.