Hello all and welcome to the third pubtalk since we (re)started this feature…
I’m so grateful for all the great discussions we have had on the first two subjects for our chats. Today I think we could tackle one of the choices we have as poets
form or free.
First of all, I don’t think that free verse is not really free at all… I think every poet uses all the poetic devices he/she can, such as meter and rhyme, but a poetic form means that you follow certain restrictions prescribed by someone else.
Let us start with forms, and as an example take a look at Shakespeare’s Sonnet 130
SONNET 130
My mistress’ eyes are nothing like the sun;
Coral is far more red than her lips’ red;
If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun;
If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head.
I have seen roses damask’d, red and white,
But no such roses see I in her cheeks;
And in some perfumes is there more delight
Than in the breath that from my mistress reeks.
I love to hear her speak, yet well I know
That music hath a far more pleasing sound;
I grant I never saw a goddess go;
My mistress, when she walks, treads on the ground:
And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare
As any she belied with false compare.
This is first of all one of my favorite sonnets. I think it tells of true love through it’s wry humor and excellent volta, secondly I think it represents an almost perfect sonnet and the restrictions of iambic pentameter and rhymes lends itself to great reading like this one by Alan Rickman:
To me it feels very close to natural speech despite the strict form.
Writing to a form can be like laying a puzzle, and much like a sculpture has to work according to the ways of the stone, you are not totally free to write “against” the nature of the words. This restriction works both as a fence and as a banister leading you on.
Other forms have other challenges and can be a topic all in itself, and I have to say that I lack the full competence and knowledge of them.
So moving on to the free verse there are basically no rules at all, but that does not mean the poet just does what he/she wants. In a way you have to invent the form yourself, you have to fence your words and find a barrister where you can.
Take a look at:
Caged Bird by Maya Angelou
A free bird leaps
on the back of the wind
and floats downstream
till the current ends
and dips his wing
in the orange sun rays
and dares to claim the sky.
But a bird that stalks
down his narrow cage
can seldom see through
his bars of rage
his wings are clipped and
his feet are tied
so he opens his throat to sing.
The caged bird sings
with a fearful trill
of things unknown
but longed for still
and his tune is heard
on the distant hill
for the caged bird
sings of freedom.
I think this is free verse at its best. Every line-break perfectly placed to help the reader pace the reading, with different line lengths helping to carry the flow. Listen to this reading made by various famous people:
So now for you… what is your view on writing to form vs writing free verse?
I know that most of you write free verse, but how are you doing to making it flow?
Do you have a favorite form to write or to read?
What do you find easy or hard when writing poetry to form?
Share your view and let’s discuss?
dVerse 
Hello all… what are your thoughts on this, I’m curious about what you think… and if you want to comment in iambic pentameter please do so.
Hi Bjorn. Good subject. I dislike writing to fussy forms, the ones that concentrate on repeating lines, rhyme schemes, rhythm counts. I don’t mine forms like the cherita. I do like the Japanese forms like classic haiku, tanka, and gogyoshi which rely on syllable counts and the use of kigo. I like free form although I do try to incorporate things like repetition of a line or words.
I think that once you get into the mind of either syllable count or certain restriction you carry them with you… I do like the rhymes to lead me on sometimes…
One thing, I am dyslexic. Rhymes, rhthms, etc. imprison me. I don’t mind like the cherita – one line, two line, three lines with no rhyme schemes or line length but must tell a story. I like that form. I cannot abide forms like the villain-nell. That has to do with my dyslexia. But I do feel imprisoned by certain forms. Like I said the fussy ones. The ones that demand a rhyme scheme of abab, bcbc, cdcd and repeat the first line to be the last line and the second line to be the first line of the third stanza…all that stuff makes me want to scream. I am so busy trying to fit the form that I lose my poem. I don’t like them.
I can understand that… for me they are like a math problem though… a problem of symmetry…
Yes I can see that. These forms remind me of algebra. I hated it. I didn’t mind calculus or geometry. I didn’t mind physics. I am an engineer after all. Or rather was. But my dyslexic brain separates math from poetry. One side of my brain is math, the other is poetry. the two sides don’t connect. I learned to read at three by memorizing words. I cannot memorize these forms, like terza rima. I don’t mind reading the form. I just can’t write it. I simply cannot make the connection.
How interesting… I have always thought that the connection between form and math was clear, I had never thought about the difference between algebra and calculus though… but what I have found is that when I write enough of iambic pentameter, I don’t have to count the feet any longer… it just runs by itself. Now it has been a long while since I wrote sonnets and such things… but writing iambs I often does even in free verse.
I so agree. And I think if you write contemporary poetry, it should be free form, though you can certainly write what you like.
For myself, when I focus on the form, I lose the poem.
This is just my opinion.
I forgot I wanted to say something else. I don’t think poetry can be taught. Either you are a poet or you are not. It is like art, and I’m pretty sure you cannot be taught to be an artist, either you are or you are not.
Maybe what I am saying, is a poem is about the idea, for me. One can be taught about poetry, but cannot be taught to be a poet. Same for art. I have studied all my life, I am an artist, I do not think it came from the study of art.
I am not sure whether it is naive or conceited, but I generally let the words guide me. I admit that at school I found writing to forms and labeling rhyme patterns really off putting, but that does not mean i avoid them when they present themselves as a means to telling my tale.
I like the thought of letting the words guide you… however in the presence of a rhyme or an assonance I feel it to be like a pebble that leads me further on… the same thing with meter, I sometimes go to a thesaurus to find a synonym that fits better with the rhythm
I occasionally use rhymezone: https://www.rhymezone.com/ when I can’t think of a rhyme or don’t like what I’ve come up with.
I do to… or sometimes b-rhymes.com if I want to make the rhymes a little more subtle.
I haven’t looked at that one. I’ll check it out.
First of all, thank you for that amazing reading by Alan Rickman. I am covered in goose pimples now.
I would say that I am primarily a free verse writer, but I do find a satisfaction in writing to a form. I started my poetry blog specifically to take part in NaPoWriMo, and there were quite a few form prompts there.
For me, they are quite different disciplines. When you write to a form you realise why people like Shelley spent weeks writing a single poem. To achieve form and meaning is really tricky. My form poems are generally dominated by the form, and the meaning is slightly secondary – sometimes the form pushes me somewhere unexpected. Having said that, I’ve used the villanelle 7 times over the last couple of years – and I haven’t always been forced to. Sometimes I’ve done it voluntarily – like this:
https://fmmewritespoems.wordpress.com/2018/04/11/the-body-as-a-state-of-union-napowrimo-11/
I admit to mixed feelings about haiku. I’ve seen some beautiful ones, but there are a lot of haiku out there that aren’t really…
I suppose the other thing about a form is that it makes you think about language and rhythm, and that’s important to free verse as well.
I might go and listen to Alan again now…
First I think that the reading of Alan Rickman is one you can listen to over and over… I actually got the tip on this reading from a poetry workshop once… (especially the way he says reeks is wonderful)… for me I started out writing form (maybe more for the challenge) and then I think I brought some of the form into my free writing… one of my proudest moments was when I wrote a blankverse poem and was complimented on what a great free verse it was… to me it shows that sometimes the differences are not that big….
it is a beautiful reading. I had my husband listen to it as well. His voice…he’s one of the reasons I adore the film Love, Actually!
Very nice villanelle. I find villanelles hard and confusing to write. There’s a lot to balance in that form.
In my humble opinion, I think that a poet has to be able to write good, memorable poetry in a strict form in the same way an artist has to be able to draw. Learning how the language works and how it sounds is like draughtsmanship. it’s the basis. Once you understand the basics you can build anything you want.
I think I agree to some extent, though sometimes you come upon poets who seem to have a natural sense and have no real clue about forms… (but most often they are musicians)…
But training on forms is a great way to improve your general writing. I have found that I write better powerpoint presentations at work these days 🙂
But just because they choose not to write to a strict form, doesn’t mean they can’t. What I was getting at is that poetry is an art form like any other. It uses techniques. You have to master the techniques before you can do your own original thing. You can’t write good prose until you have mastered grammar and have built up a vocabulary. You can’t write music until you’ve learnt how, and you can’t paint in a figurative style until you have mastered draughtsmanship and perspective.
I do agree with you… and sometimes I think people might even pretend to know less than they do …
You’re probably right.
I do think of your prompts as an apprenticeship, or an exercise circuit. They were great for building confidence and technique.
I think it’s important if you take poetry seriously. It’s not an obligation, of course 🙂 Once you’ve mastered form, you can let it go and write however you want, but I think the ear remembers.
I agree… the ear and the hands remember..
It’s hard to unlearn.
For decades I wrote just free form, aping Whitman; but in the years I’ve been hanging out at dVerse I came to realize that I had found my own style, but it had been influenced by my reading of other poets–lists, types of line breaks, internal rhyme, repeating lines, lines and stanzas moving around the page. I have tried all the myriad of forms here for years; the more restrictive they are, the less I like them. I fell in love with the haibun and the haiku, but I found that I may use American sentences, tankas, senryu, and Neruda sonnets. I may put three or more surrounding the prose, and I put the lines in sections all over the page. For years now I include quotes as a preface, and my poetics tend to run a full page, or more–which fatigues some readers. I invented my “Cinemagenic” form, but I realize without being a former actor, and a film buff/critic, this form would be difficult for most to master. A decade ago I ran across a poet who had tried to use screenplays as a form, but he didn’t have the expertise to pull it off.
I think you definitely have written more to form than you think Glenn… and I think that we always try to prune it to perfection… I remember that you recorded your poems a while ago… when I did the same I sometimes realized I had to tune it to fit the rhythm of my reading better… have you ever done that?
Hello Bjorn and fellow poets- I write both free form and those forms with rhyme and rhythm. When I write free form, I spill the words out on paper, not thinking about where the breaks should be. It is only after I have written most of a free form poem that I go back and tweak where I want the breaks for emphasis to be. I don’t always get it right, but usually even with free form, there is a rhythm of its own. I do enjoy writing challenging forms, because I believe it stretches me as a writer, and some challenges given whether here or other sites, do help me to learn about different forms. One of my favorite forms is the Pantoum, for I believe it is a tough form as well. To have lines repeated throughout and still create a powerful message is challenging. When I nail it, it brings me such joy. I, like Toni, write haiku and Tanka also but I know I have not mastered them. Lastly, I find a Cinquain poem and its variations quite enjoyable.
Cinquain was one of my early favorite, especially the one where you do it in strict iambic form… the challenge in form stretches us, I agree and makes the free verse writing better…
Yes, it does. I think subconsciously we impose those remembered rules on free form at times. I know I do…
I do it even when I write prose
and sometimes even when I comment… 🙂
I prefer writing in metrically (very) strict forms that optionally rhyme and mine usually rhyme. This “sound” as Frost calls it comes very natural for me. I don’t have to think about it. In a matter of seconds, if I know what I want to say, the poem is done, at least in first draft.
However, I do like Mary Oliver’s free verse poetry, but I am unable to imitate it.
What I like about Oliver is the “sense” of her poems, not so much the sound. Basically I agree with what she is saying and I find how she is saying it interesting. It is positive, life-affirming and I feel good reading it. When I write the prose part of the haibun, I try to imitate her style of writing.
My training as a mathematician has affected my prose style. I need things to be clear, defendable should they be challenged, and very brief. When writing a piece of flash fiction I have to ignore some of that, but thankfully the brevity comes in handy.
I think that being into mathematics (as I also am … ) the meter comes easy… I think you mentioned once that you found tetrameter easier than pentameter, and I remember feeling the same… I know many who love Mary Oliver… I have not read her so much… my favourite contemporary poet is Carol Ann Duffy…
Tetrameter is my favorite meter. It is a shorter line than pentameter and it balances with the even shorter trimeter. It is basically what “common meter” uses.
Reading Mary Oliver is like reading a sermon given by a mystic in love with nature. I haven’t read Carol Ann Duffy, but I will keep her in mind.
Frank, I love your simple/not simple rhymes and poems. You can say so much in such a natural way. It is natural to you. It is not natural to me. Line breaks in free verse? Sometimes I plan them, other times they happen. I always go back though and tweak – words, internal rhythms…I too use a Thesaurus for synonyms and antonyms. Haibun? I feel most people write them too long or use them for flash fiction, which they are not. things like tanka prose for example that screw around with them frankly, annoy me. It is a paradox. I dislike forms but I keep strict guidelines to Japanese forms. LOL
Syllabic forms puzzle me since they do not have a meter underlying them, only a syllable counting which I can’t hear very well. The rhyme is not as important to me as the patterned accentual meter. Most of the haiku/haibun/haiga poets I know at the Illinois State Poetry Society (ISPS) don’t keep to the strict 5-7-5 syllable count in haiku. I’m reading Charlotte Digregorio’s “Haiku and Senryu: A Simple Guide for All” since she is a member of ISPS and we attend common meetings. A stanza of common meter is about the length of a tanka, but it is easier for me to sense if I’ve got it right or not.
I remember when I wrote a lot of 575 poems (maybe not haiku… ) but then I could feel the rhythm… then i started writing meter, and the same thing happened… that’s why I think it takes training…
I agree with you Glenn. I love haiki – classic haiku. Not that mess most people write and call haiku. It is a form and I respect it. In my humble opinion, froms most are like those houses you see in subdivisions – each one the same – the only difference is the color of the siding. Once you’ve built one house, you have built them all.
That reading is just amazing and creates goose bumps. I have come to appreciate poetry forms, learning on the sounds, rhythm and flow to the ear. For me, forms make me realize that poetry needs to have that sound, if you I may call it, so I don’t mind learning new forms. Also, the new “younger” poets now are not aware of the poetry forms, and they just write in free form. I think its a pity to missed out learning the poetry forms, specially the classic ones, like sonnet. In writing free form now, I incorporate what I have learned from poetry forms, so it flows nicely (I try, but struggle with meter and such).
Thanks Bjorn for an interesting discussion.
I agree…. to go through the form, and the basic makes it flow easier… I find myself that I often use the thesaurus to find other words that flows better… actually I have discussed with writers of prose, and they do the same.
I need to go now but I have enjoyed this discussion. I don’t think we will ever agree on to form or not form, but that we will always agree on what is a good poem. I may be back later to read further. I will conclude that I dislike fussy forms intensely and my dyslexia doesn’t like them either. If I had a choice of to write a form and not write it well and say something meaningful or to write free verse and say something meaningful, obviously, I will choose the free verse. I like to take my time to write forms and too often, the challenges are to put on a form as quick as you can. Some people can do it, I cannot.
Form can be so wide, and somehow I think every poet find a form where to put the words… but I full agree, meaning goes way before form… (I have a fancy for metaphor)…
This is an interesting discussion. I agree that the reading by Alan Rickman is wonderful. Hearing him read it provide some subtle nuances to the words.
I write both free verse and stricter forms. The poems I’ve had published (not that many!) have all been free verse, and that often seems to be the preference–but I think it’s still important to pay attention to rhythm and line breaks. I like the challenge of trying to write to forms, and I think it helps improve my writing, in general. Like Jane said, it’s like learning the basics so you can do other things–playing scales for music, learning how to breath for singing, etc. But I also like writing (and reading) some form poetry just for the pleasure in itself. I like repeating verses. I’m not always a big fan of haiku. 🙂
I think the exercise in trying both is what making us into better poets, but then some forms just “clicks” others do not… for me I have to say that the sonnet is the perfect form. Not too long, not too short… some simple rules and you can vary it at length.
There are even free verse sonnets, that still keep with only part of the rules…
Today is not a time for poetry challenge but for discussions on poetry forms… but what about this as a challenge:
1. If you normally write free verse, take an old poem and rewrite it into a form…
2. If you normally write to form, take and old poem and rewrite it to free verse…
I think you will enjoy the result and see both the differences. To tease you a little, this is a villanelle I wrote a long time ago when I was challenged to turn a free verse into form.
https://brudberg.me/2015/05/28/this-glowing-night-of-sanguine-hips/
Toni is a lovely paradox. I look to her expertise in the Japanese forms, but my goal is to continue to hone my style, to borrow what I like, and shelf the rest. Belonging to this group has enriched my knowledge, which in turn has effected my style. I write in long hand, and wherein when I type the poem, I love moving the lines and breaks around adding joy to the process. How the words look on the page, for me, is paramount to the presentation.
Good evening everyone! Thank you for this interesting pub talk, Björn, and for the wonderful reading of my favourite Shakespearean sonnet. I’m not able to say a lot this evening but would like to add my two pennyworth.
I used to write in form a lot, particularly sonnets, my favourite form for a long time, both classic in iambic pentameter,and modern sonnets with a much looser structure. I also write haiku and love to try new forms. However, my poems tend to write themselves and, like you, Björn, I rather like the rhymes to lead me on sometimes or the words to take me where they will. But I cannot think of poetry as mathematics – for me it’s more organic, spiritual and very much from the heart. But I do agree with Sarah that form makes you think about language and rhythm, which is also important to free verse. I also agree with Jane that learning how the language works and how it sounds is like draughtsmanship. Once you understand the basics you can build anything you want. You need to know the rules in order to break them.
That final point is a great one… we have to break rules in the end don’t we?
If we never break the rules nothing will be new…
I remember once when we had a prompt on breaking of rules… we could chose any form we wanted, we just had to break it one way or another.
Yes, Bjorn, I recorded hundreds of my poems for several years, as well as performed them in open mike sessions, and I really enjoyed doing both. But my ill health this year left me with no incentive to keep up with my writing. The last couple of months I have got back into the swing of things–but I let my subscription lapse with the recording service, and interestingly, they in turn cancel/delete all the recordings. I thought, in my naive way, that I “owned” those recordings as documents–no such luck. They have the technical capacity to delete all the masters, so the URL click comes up empty; really pissed me off. So much so that I have not resubscribed to any of those services; sigh.
Oh.. I have to check… maybe they have deleted mine too…
Alan Rickman could say anything and it would sound good. I like his subtle humor that brings balance and reality to his emotions. Surely he cannot idolize one when he is forced to make other comparisons.
I like to not be restricted by rhyme and meter, but I do love the challenge. My husband tells me I don’t write poetry, but random thoughts on a page. But, I am learning from all of you that poetry is so much more! So I continue!
I think we all write random thoughts 🙂 at least I know that I do … that’s poetry. But the craftsmanship of poetry forms can sometimes help us in making thoughts into music…
Hi Björn! My muse dictates the form-more or less. I wish I could be more specific… but I focus on a subject, think about it for awhile, then it just comes😊
I do to… have you ever tried rewriting an old poem into a form? that can be quite fun.
Ah! I’m yet to try that!
Afternoon, Poets! Thanks, Bjorn, for this interesting conversation starter. I enjoy the haikai form, of course, especially haibun. Within the prose, I feel free to follow whatever musicality and rhythm I feel that a poem needs. In terms of haiku, I follow Jane Reichhold’s phrase-fragment method of composition. I use the kigo and cut, and I complement two seeming disparite images, but I don’t adhere to syllable counts, strictly.
Other structured poems I find challenging. I’ve managed a sonnet or two, but quite frankly the other ones stump me. I have written free verse poem. That, for me, is an intuitive process, centered again on the musicality the poem requires.
I tend to follow the contrast in the haiku like you say… focus on the nonexistent cutting word… I think the sonnet you wrote just proved that you can probably try that form as well, and if you include the volta (for example the last two lines in a shakesperean sonnet) has a lot in common with the cutting word..
Indeed. The challenge of iambic pentameter and the rhyme scheme remain challenging for me when I write sonnets–let alone the requirements of the other forms!
I enjoy the free from but try to keep the rhythmic flow going with each line. The Haikai poetic form that Frank Tassone challenges us with is also very interesting to me. I knew very little about this before. I love writing Haikus and have learned details from all of you that have helped me be more true to the form. Tankas, Haibun, and Senyru are interesting challenges as well. The most difficult for me was the iambic pentameter . I had to follow the given poem, and form my poem to that pattern. I love the Quadrille and Haibun that we do here at d’Verse. I still have a lot to learn. I find putting photos with my poetry really enhances the effect.
I remember when I worked a lot with iambic pentameter I could write it almost like prose, just page after page… a long time ago I actually wrote a whole OLN message in blank verse… you should try it, after a while you just feel those ten syllables with da-DUM rhythm… then if you remove the line breaks it will feel like natural prose… very ineresting actually.
Thank you Bjorn. I will have to pursue it further!
I enjoy writing free verse and form. I use free verse when I want to spill thoughts quickly and find my rhythm after the first stanza. Forms are great for when I want to express deeper thoughts on a subject matter. It challenges me to stay on track in thought and style.
I think one should always go back and forth between free and form. like you do.. at least if you enjoy growing as poet.
“This restriction works both as a fence and as a banister …”
This is an excellent description.
I think sometimes we need the fence, sometimes the banister… and sometimes we need an open meadow.
Although I mostly write in free from and love the freedom it gives, I also like to write in specific forms. I find when trying to write in specific form makes you really think about your words and structure. I find this very beneficial and helps you (or at least me personally) improve your writing style and techniques.
It does for me too… and having spent a lot of time in writing to form I have found how my free verse is so much more confident… glad that you feel the same.
I loved both these poems that you shared, and even more so because I never heard that Alan Rickman video before! I agree that free verse is never truly free verse, as we still abide by rules we set for ourselves, if no one else.
The simplest form is a white paper… there is no way to write outside the edge… and from that we will always try to challenge ourselves.
Thank you for the great conversation. I enjoyed reading the perspectives shared.
Well done, Björn. Nice discussion. Long live dVerse!
Just a quote I read last week makes me think of this discussion, (if anyone is still reading). “Poets do not go mad; but chess-players do. Mathematicians go mad, and cashiers; but creative artists very seldom. I am not, as will be seen, in any sense attacking logic: I only say that this danger does lie in logic, not in imagination.”
― G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy
tags: christianity, danger, logic, mad, mathematicians, orthodoxy Read more quotes from
Ha… I work all day with logic… I wonder if I write poetry to stay sane, or if I need the logic at work to stay sane…
This reminds me of Ada Lovelace, the only legitimate child of Lord Byron, whose mother trained her only in math to avoid turning into the same perceived madness of her father…
Ada became what is today believed to be the first programmer when she worked with Charles Babbage… So I guess we might need a bit of both.
Fascinating discussion, Bjorn. To be honest, before I started blogging I only wrote free verse and the occasional rhyming poem. Through blogging, I became aware of the popularity of various forms, haiku, halibun. tanka etc. and I have attempted to write occasionally within a form. I particularly like dVerse’s quadrille challenge – 44 words allows room to develop a theme. I sometimes start with a form to focus the language and then I set the poem free. I don’t think it pays to be too doctrinaire about art, it’ s the end result that matters. JIm
I love that you like our 44 words of poem… one of the first comment I truly remember was a comment from one of our then hosts at dVerse who said that poetry is the art of writing while restricting yourself in various ways…
To me these restrictions are actually what we call form, and different forms have different challenges.
I will come back later if anyone wish to continue the discussion… I love the enthusiasm you show for our topics here, and if you have any future topics, just send me a message