Today I thought we should discuss a bit on poetry and yourself.
I think we can all agree that we pour part of ourselves into the words we write. Even when writing fiction, we tend to include our fears and moral element.
We can also write poetry and fiction in different perspectives. The most common ones are first person and third person singular but I sometimes experiment also with second person and pluralis.
The problem is how much of our identity we use when writing in first person. In fiction it has become quite common to write fiction in first person, but I have found through comments and reading that there is a higher degree of honesty required in poetry. This difference I find quite interesting and it also bridges over to another aspect of writing about someone else.
To me this is delicate balance, of course I can never understand how another human is feeling. I have to use my imagination and maybe project to parallel emotions of being passionate or hurt.
At the end this a delicate balance between compassion and appropriation.
What is your take on this, can you (or should you) even try to capture someone else’s emotions? If so, what is ok, and what is not?
If you want to share a favorite poem of being totally honest or a great poem of fiction, please add a link below.
You can listen to Sylvia Plath reading her poem Daddy below.
dVerse 
Hello all.. welcome to the discussion. I think this topic is very interesting and I look forward to you views.
Thanks for hosting, Bjorn.
When I use the word “I”, I always mean myself because that is what I think the reader expects. And I may not have a chance to say that this “I” character really isn’t me. So I might as well go along with it being me and not say anything untruthful.
Even if I’m writing a story. I could use a named character to get some distance but even then, I am describing that character as myself in some role I imagine the other person is in.
I understand what you mean, but sometimes I used the “I” anyway because the poem turns stronger… ha… maybe I imagine myself being someone else.
Especially in haibun which are supposed to be a true accounting of something that happened directly to the person writing the narrative, I always use “I” as in me. I have basically gotten away from a lot of “I” poems, even in haibun. I don’t know if I am saying this correctly but many times, it seems people use “I” poems to write fiction which is fine. But personally, I get tired of all the “I” poems. Just me, lol. I think people use “I” poems as a sort of excuse, as a way to write to poetry without realizing that “I” isn’t always important? The few times I use “I” in a poem, it is always a true sharing of me. Gee, I am not sure I am saying this right at all.
I think this is a very common thing in poetry… interestingly in fiction it’s perfectly ok to write on first person perspective… but of course in haibun when it’s part of the form i always write about myself.
I sort of agree with you about “I” poems. I still write them, but often, even if the poem is about myself, I will use “she” or even try to avoid pronouns if possible.
Had never written a haibun – or heard of one – till I joined dVerse 2+ years ago. Really, had never written much poetry. I thought the prose section of the poetry had to be truth, wthin the experience of the writer….and then the haiku, about nature with a kigo reference to a season, could be something the writer had not seen directly? I’ve learned so much from you Toni about this wonderful form.
Thank you Lillian for your kind words. Usually people write about a kigo they have seen directly. haiku is in the moment and not imagined….like snow or hawthorns. I could not write about hawthorns. I could write about a picture of one but really experiencing them, no. Like you have! I think all of us have experienced sleet, snow, hot summers….
There is a delicate balance when writing poetry, I agree. I have seen poets write real life experiences and emotions that can be quite moving and I think it depends on how comfortable the poet is with sharing such personal information. It may not be too detailed but the experience is very personal and this can convey honesty and authenticity.
However, I also believe that writing can be creative and imaginative, and sometimes you are prompted to write something beyond your personal experiences. In this case, I immerse myself with reading and imagining what this feels. I know a lot of singers who write about love songs but they are actually not in a relationship or have not experienced any heartbreak. And yet they can be gifted musicians and singers, that I enjoy their music or songs.
Thank you for hosting this discussion Bjorn.
I think that as long as you can connect to the emotions of the person you write about you are writing partly about yourself… but to write truly confessional poetry can be extremely hard and maybe something not everyone can (and want) to do.
Yes, that’s part of what makes poetry so powerful: Even if you haven’t been in the same situations, the emotions can be the same or similar, so the reader can see parts of themself in the poem.
I agree, Grace, and I also thought of lyricists in this.
Interesting. Björn, you commented something about writing from that point of view in my recent poem about refugees. I used “we,” and I did imagine myself as one of them. And of course, I don’t really know what it’s like. When I write my Monday Morning Musings, it’s about my life, so the I is always really me. So, I think it really depends on the type of poem and the subject. I’ve written from the point of view of imaginary creatures, so they’re not me, but yes, I think there are always elements of me in what I write—probably even the nonfiction.
I think that imagining being a refuge, or someone abused is important… as long as you connect to your own emotions.
That was exactly the feel I got from that poem, Merrill. It was understood, if not directly stated. Great point!
I am making some changes in my own poetry. for example, instead of writing lengthy descriptive haibun, I am writing more the brief haibun as in the original of Basho. I am also experimenting with writing personal poetry without using “I” “me” “myself”. sort of going back to the roots of Japanese style poetry. I like reading personal poetry but when it gets so ever poem a poet writes is full of “I” I grow bored with it. One of the challenges I am working on is to write personal poetry without putting “I” in it. It is hard but finally I am getting the hang of it. Just as I have honed down haibun to less than 100 words total.
I know some poets who always write in an alter ego… a name for instance, and that alter ego is to some extent yourself… my aged librarian has parts of me inside… and yet not at all.
I love your aged librarian. He has been silent of late.
He is resting a little bit…
🙂
Time to wake up the ancient librarian! I so enjoy reading from his perspective. He is such an amazing personna that you’ve created, Bjorn.
I also then of Glenn’s Westerns and am so amazed how he can capture the spirit of those characters….and even the feelings of a horse in that setting!
Ooh, that’s a good idea, Bjorn, to write from an “alter ego!”
Thomas Wolfe said that everything we write is autobiographical. I’m still thinking about that.
I think that’s is true… if you with autobiographical include all those fears and dreams of things that has happened (yet)
Agreed
The thing I like about Japanese style poetry is that it isn’t autobiographical. It is in the moment and seasonal. Personal without being personal. I know my haiku certainly isn’t autobiographical, it is rather a “biography” of the seasons, or at least, proper haiku is not autobiographical.
I think a haiku should capture a moment… something you can see… which is why I prefer to write it about the seasons we have here in Sweden… 🙂
Exactly. Some people don’t get that kigo is not Japanese in origin but is universal. I love our southern kigo just as you love the Swedish.
One of my favorite kigo for early summer is rape seed… have you seen a rape seed field?
Yes I have. Beautiful yellow flowers, aren’t they? Am I thinking of something else? but I have seen the fields of yellow in Japan
I like that idea of “a biography of the seasons.”
Hi all. Bjorn, good questions. There is no way for an artist to escape elements of themselves in their work, as it is expressed through the lens of the artist, even if they are projecting it on to someone else, as in other than first person. If a person is sensitive, empathic, and has a well of experiences from which to draw, they could create someone unlike themselves; however it would still reveal the writer’s well.
Yes… and I think it’s all about connecting to your emotions… that is always autobiographical
Agreed. In Sylvia’s poem, even though the poem is about how evil daddy is, and even though she wants the world to know how he harmed her, the poem is much more about her own agony from her trauma bond with him…
Even more complicated since her father was also a holocaust survivor…
oh my.
Now it’s bedtime here in Sweden… but please continue the discussion…
Sleep well, Bjorn. Sorry to be late to the discussion.
I thought the point about musicians writing love stories was an interesting comment. Music is poetry (I think) and the writer/singer jumps right in to the words and the feelings evoked by the instruments. We do that when we write poetry, I think. Jump right into the soul of the words and the rhythms and sounds if we read it aloud before we chosse a final version.
I think you the comment about love is correct… you can write about falling in love just from your memories or dreams of love… you can write about heartbreak from fear and memory —
Well…..I must say….I’ve written poetry from the first person, that is so personal, it reaches into my gut. That’s been mostly about my husband’s cardiac arrest 5 years ago — he is a walking miracle today….and about my relationships in family. But I’ve also taken on another person/role/situation, writing as if it were happening to me….and sometimes using the I there as well. It’s trying to feel/be/experience what another might. For me, empathy in this way, is a response to things happening in today’s world. Perhaps I should always include a short statement after this type of poem: This I is not me?
I do the same… sometimes stepping into the shoes of others writing from the first perspective… I think sometimes I would not put a statement afterwards if it’s very obvious (for instance if I act as a female…)
I am odd. I don’t care for the poems where a poet “imagines” feelings and things. But that is just me and my pragmatic voice. I feel if it is going to be personal it should really have happened to you, not what you imagine it feels like. Like when someone says to someone, in well meaning sympathy usually, I know how you feel. I am always,,,,no, you don’t know how I feel. You know how you would feel but not how I feel. I know. I am a grumpy cat but I really dislike when someone imagines how a drunk would feel or a prostitute. But again, that is just me.
I think this not an odd statement at all… this is exactly where the division lies. As a matter of fact it has been at the core of literature discussion for centuries…
Personally I see it a bit as acting… we do expect an actor to play a wide array of different roles… but an author is not.
The only thing we have to acknowledge is that there will always be different opinions.
Where is the Mr. Linkey connection? It does not show up on my blog!
For these pub-talks there wouldn’t be one. We just add to the discussion in the comments. At least that is how I understand these pub-talk Mondays.
Oh I thought we were sharing a poem. You all missed a good one!
Post it for Open Link! 😊
I will.… Great Idea! Thanks.
🙂
Today I am writing a poem about my mother. I did not see any direction that said it had to be a haibun , so I wrote a poem about my mother’s thoughts as a teenager when she watched my father drive the cows up the lane. They lived across the field from one another!
Today is discussion Monday.
Thank You. I did not realize that was what was gong on.
Once a month on haibun Monday there is discussion of various topics.
I had forgotten about that!
Feel free to delete my question about Mr. Linkey. I won’t mind.
We have OpenLinkNight this Thursday so you can link up the poem.
Thank you. I will do that. You can delete my earlier question about Mr. Linkey.
There are two different “I’s” that I employ in writing. The first “I” would be for sharing, be it in poetry or prose, an authentic experience that happened to me, or an emotion that I experienced in an actual situation. I am of an age and/or temperament where reaching to a genuine place, or raw emotion, is cathartic in nature – rather than frightening ir embarrassing.
The other “I” is the first person expression I use in writing fiction intended to pull the reader into a fully realized symbiotic experience of the plot – pulling the reader into the mind of the character, seeing through the character’s eyes. This heightens the emotional impact. I love writing science fiction and fantasy poetry, both dark and light, using this second “I”.
This is exactly why I use the two different I:s … it’s interesting to note that the second typs of I is pretty recent in literature, but during the 20th century it became dominant… actually one of the earliest one I have read was from Charles Dickens in Bleak House where some of the chapters are “written” by the an Esther Summerson… today I would think that those parts of the book is the least strong, but at that time it was pretty revolutionary.
Another thing that I find interesting is that fiction in poetry has become less common, and maybe that’s the reason why you expect only the first “I” to be used in poetry. Maybe by moving it to SciFi you can actually make it obvious that you are writing outside the constraint we put upon us. Maybe it’s one of the reasons that SciFi and Fantasy has increased so much in popularity…
I enjoy writing from another person’s perspective, especially family members. I wrote a fictional autobiography of my Grandfather who came to America with his family in 1892. He was a very creative person and there were many one or two sentence stories about him.. Being familiar with his home where my father grew up, I used that and information from other family members to put together a profile of what he may have been like. I also wrote what I thought he would have done or how he might have reacted from my own feelings. It turned out very well. Poetry does much the same thing when we write about someone else. Our perspective is in everything we create.
I think projecting yourself into the shoes of a close relative is an interesting one… maybe in some way it’s both easier in the sense that we see similarities to ourselves and harder in that it becomes a write about ourselves.
That is true… we probably tend to put even more of ourselves in this kind of writing!
I feel there is no platform to follow. Writers have a story to tell and express their intentions as best they can. When there’s a specific audience, a style is chosen, otherwise they try their best to convey their thoughts.
I think there are all kind of opinions on this… some feel very strongly about only write about their own personal experience, others believe or think that you can try to imagine yourself in different roles.
I agree. Some stay in a definite groove but their personality and perspective always comes through. I like to try a little of everything, but my style and personal perspective always comes through. Just like recognizing a painters style.
I have a firm belief that the best fiction is non-fiction; the best writers know themselves so well (and yes, often their hundreds of selves) that they can build complex characters by simply being honest with themselves. Dostoevsky was Dmitri, Ivan, and Alyosha Karamazov; Hugo was both Jean Valjean and Javert in a lifelong spiritual struggle of virtue. Imagination is good to fill in the blanks and it’s a beautiful gift as children develop it, but it cannot be the driving force in good literature, poetry included. There is nothing more fascinating –and more vital– than the truth.
I cannot agree more.
You mention imagination to fill in the blanks. Sheer observation of the character, outside of oneself, goes a long way to develop a rounded persona I should think?
I don’t think a fabricated character can be complete or “rounded.” A writer may never have to tell their secrets or in this case, reveal how much of themselves are in their protagonists and even antagonists, but my speculation is that the most beloved characters reflect the psyches of their creators.
And we agree that Charles Dickens was not Esther Summerson, and though a brave attempt the voice of a young girl from an old man did not turn out very credible :-). I find it interesting that you mention the creation of new characters by using building blocks of self…
I don’t know Björn, maybe you have a little girl deep inside you waiting to be realized. The Aged Librarian Meets His Long-lost Granddaughter at the Checkout Counter? 👧🏼
Sometimes you have to be yourself, sometimes you have to be the whole world.
My dog is Named Alyosha. It is interesting, since I named him he seems to be Alyosha, quiet, in the background, not flashy, full of love, and the true hero of the story.
I feel like Alyosha’s my soulmate. I really want to meet your dog! 😌
He is great, the one thing that might spoil soulmate possibilities is the copious slobber.
In literature, we acknowledge the author and the ‘voice,’ or narrator. They may be the same, but we should never assume that is the case unless the author explicitly tells us it is so. I think of the excellent poem that Rob posted for Thursday’s MTB in which his preamble shares that it is a highly personal poem about the loss of his son. (A powerful poem, if you haven’t read it.) I think of the poetry of Jane Kenyon who wrote with clarity and purpose as she dealt with disease and the certainty of her early death. The voice is that of Jane Kenyon, poet. On the other hand, we read the poetry of William Wordsworth and realize that not all of the “I” poems are actual depictions of the experience of the day, if we look at his sister’s corresponding journals. Like most fiction writers, there is an element of my personal experience or observation in most of the poetry that I write, but it may be only a think strand, blended and altered.
This is exactly how i think it should be… we can never assume what is really a personal experience unless someone explicitly says so. To some extent I think an author is also an actor/actress … to write is to play a role (and I actually think that also autobiographies are not necessarily truthful)
This reminded me of a recent poem I’ve read on Instagram where one poet was commented with “your poems are super personal”, which for me is a touche. All poems are personal (though it will never be about the poet all the time). The muse can be inspired what we heard, felt, saw, touched. When we write a broken heart, it doesnt mean ours is broken. It might be our friend’s. Or that writer of the sad song. But it is our interpretation that makes it personal. How we breathe metaphors through that crack. That brokenness. Either ours or not. 🙂
I think (and this is from personal experience) that writing about a broken heart grows from a fear of being left… I don’t think that fear is less valid than a truthful reckoning of a something that really happened.
I agree to that, Bjorn. Cheers!
Beautiful insight
Reblogged this on Reena Saxena and commented:
All about writing in first, second or third person ….
Whichever voice the poet uses, in writing a poem about whatever topic, the poet is responding to a given situation, whether in praise or in protest, therefore a personal point of view is expressed; it’s invariably about the ‘I’.
It is personal… there is always an “I” in every piece of artful writing.
I was able to write a poem inspired by this Pub Talk, Bjorn! https://areadingwritr.wordpress.com/2018/12/11/spell-poem-with-an-i/
Thank you!
We have Open Link Night on Thursday… a great moment to link it up.
yay!
In my opinion, and in reference to poetry, the author is rarely the speaker, although the speaker benefits from the author’s emotion and experience. In other words, “I” is usually the speaker’s voice, not the author’s because poetry’s job is to make comment.
I agree here… and this is very much how I try to write.
A poem is a naked person, sometimes you are the exhibtionist, sometimes you are the voyeur.
I agree with both Misky and Lona comments. Also,I think everything is true – I think writers lie to tell the truth. I’ve never understood for a second why poetry is classified as nonfiction. Presupposing that your story is not my story is frankly preposterous. We are barely distinguishable genetically from other animals, much less other humans. Your story is my story and vice versa. It is the details (where God supposedly resides) that make it interesting – and this is exactly where poets use their poetic license most. I wonder if any (good) poet has ever written a literal account of what happened without a single tweak to smooth the edges or drive a point home or up the ante? Ist person is strong and interesting and works to protect the innocent whose story you have stolen. Furthermore, it is impossible because of the way our storytelling brains work, to remember exactly what really happened – the Rashoman effect so to speak. So nothing we write is strictly true. In fact I think truth with a capitol ‘T’ is an mythical beast. And the smaller truths are – if we’re good at our craft- what poets embed in every poem they write. Finally circumstance, facts are just that, not truths in and of themselves. In my mind truths are statements about the human condition, and personal truth deals with the meaning (whatever that may be) one’s experience holds for one. That meaning can be expressed by describing a real experience or a fictional one, or by co-opting someone else’s story – doesn’t matter which. I think what matters is that the poet knows what meaning the story holds for them, how it connects with their personal life. Of course everything connects in some way if you dig deep enough. I think the better you know yourself as a human being the better poet you can be.
So well stated and comprehensive, might even have a shot of being true with a capital T. 😉
This is so well stated and to me it expresses the real truth… that there is no truth in poetry except what you feel… which to some extent is the postmodern manifesto (which is in itself a contradiction)… the reason is that we have equated the lack of truth to lies, which is not true… maybe one should say that poetry should be true (to your emotions) but not the truth…
I do not find the link? So I will post my poem here:
An Honest Conversation
Yes, I think you are right
When you say poetry
Is more honest
Perhaps poetry is a mirror
Not a fun-house mirror
With their many distortions
No, a common-sense mirror
That hangs in your room
Perhaps your most honest friend
It will show you exactly how you look
Will show all of your little flaws
The tiny wrinkles around you lips
Is sees if your jeans are too tight
And reports accordingly
It sees your eyes dart away
No… look your mirror right in the face
Take the criticism
That is meant only for you
And take the compliments
“Not bad for an old girl”
Bring your tea over
Let’s sit and chat
Can you take the honesty
That is offered
Sometimes it is hard
To have that conversation
With yourself
And your mirror
December 11, 2018
There is no link for Pubtalk.. the purpose is more for sharing ideas and have a discussions… thank you for the poetic answer to the prompt.. the honesty in poetry I think is key, rather than truth or perspective… I love you like it to a mirror.. maybe it’s closer to a mirror than truthful storytelling.
late to the pub (yet again!!) but just wanted to add something which may or may not be useful to consider. Emotional empathy can put us in another’s shoes more than we want to at times. Because of a relationship with someone, in this case I am referring to my patients, I feel a connection to their plight and often my poetry reflects their pain and suffering, ironically those poems get the most feedback as concern as it is often misunderstood to be my own personal problem. So the conundrum is…have my readers and I also developed this connection and relationship that they too feel the empathy from just words? I am keen to explore these thoughts further, but the people i am in contact in every day do inspire me greatly with their courage and passion. Thank you for yet another very useful discussion, so many dimensions to a writer’s soul exposed and celebrated.
I write in the first person but I’ve made it clear in my bio that it is fiction and these are characters. Obviously, some of myself and my real life leaks through, but no-one would know unless they were there. As they have their own viewpoint of what happened, my version is still just an opinion and not fact.
I think this make sense… we are always a bit ourselves no matter how much fiction it is…