Hi Everyone!
I’m super excited that I have been asked to continue our conversations about poetry and form here at d’VersePoets. I have been asked to co-share this time slot with Luke Prater, a poet I genuinely admire and respect. There will be times when we may work together as his information regarding poetry and poetry forms is vast. I always wanted Form to be an open discussion. When I taught, I wanted participation and involvement with my students. Rarely did anyone use the comments section to ask questions at OneStop; however, I would like to encourage that here. I want to keep it fun and informal too, and respond to the needs and desires you have. If you want more information about a given topic, let me know.
Many forms have been covered at One Stop Poetry. These archives are being maintained and can be found here: http://onestoppoetry.com/poetry-forms
There are many more forms and other aspects of writing poetry that we can cover here; for your requests, write me a comment or a tweet (@beachanny). I will try to include it on the schedule. I’m looking forward to talking about this over a cuppa starting every other Thursday at 3 p.m. Eastern Time US (8 p.m. UK).
See you next week, Gay
~☆~
Welcome to Meeting the Bar: Crit Friday. This slot begins Thursday 3pm Eastern Time (8pm UK) and continues right through Friday, alternating week-for-week with Gay Cannon’s FormForAll. As she has mentioned, we may well team up and offer form and/or crit-based sessions in the future.
So what is this about? What, you’re probably thinking, can we do with constructive criticism at a venue like d’VersePoets? Here’s what I will offer –
Discussion on aspects of the craft, and ways to approach/see them in other people’s work, which ultimately means learning to see them in our own work, too. To put this into practice, we’ll all link up a poem, old or new, that you feel OK about being scrutinised by your peers, and we’ll all be looking a little more analytically than normal at one another’s pieces. Not just me and another critiquer I may have asked in to help with reaching everyone, but all of you. This week I won’t emphasise a particular aspect of the craft of poetry (overuse of adjectives, stanza-breaking, etc), but want to go over some basic etiquette, “ground rules”, if you like, that we must observe when offering constructive criticism/critique. You’ll get a better idea of what I mean by ‘constructive criticism’ when I lay these down.
Crit is almost certainly the most feared sphere of the poetry realm we inhabit; here on Crit Friday I offer a safe space for those interested in receiving and learning to give it, both of which greatly accelerate our growth as poets. In fact, without honest feedback, we can easily get stuck on our learning curve, because as the author/poet, having been so close to it, we can’t see the wood for the trees. We have little sense of perspective. A fresh pair of eyes might see something that we may not, like the unwanted repetition of a word. But constructive criticism goes way beyond this, teaching us facets of the craft we wouldn’t normally have looked at/edited accordingly to hone the piece.
Reading others a little more analytically is half the learning process. We absorb as much from this as from writing/receiving critique. Learning from their successes, being inspired by them; equally, learning from elements we felt didn’t work so well.
Why, then, is constructive crit scary, and is there so very little of it? I see two reasons: first, we don’t want to offend the poet, and – with all good intention – we write, usually very briefly, about the positives only. Second, if we leave a favourable comment on a blog, almost certainly they reciprocate.
This is all fine, but are we learning anything? Agreed, we don’t want lengthy, critical comments all over what is essentially a showcase for our best work, but there is certainly a middle-ground. How can we know, if no one tells us? How will I change my bad habit of feeling the need to add that last line in an attempt to ‘wrap it up’, when in 90% of cases it’s not only tautological (repeating content unnecessarily), but also robs the poem of the subtlety it had by overstatement? Honest feedback is the greatest gift a peer can give.
There are ways, however, of proffering it truly constructively, rather than it feeling like an attack. Here on Crit Friday I’ll offer a space to explore critique amongst others actively seeking to give/receive and learn together, and perhaps in time a little of it will spread onto the blogs in appropriate places and doses.
Today, I will briefly cover some etiquette and basic tips, then it’s time to link up your poem using Mr Linky below. I will make the rounds giving constructive crit, but what’s important here is that you shift your way of seeing, or manner of commenting, for this exercise, and give that honest opinion. We all come to Meet the Bar: Crit Friday expecting and wanting critique, and perhaps, as we begin looking at specific aspects of the craft and our critiquing broadens, you may like to post poems that you want help with/feel unfinished; this is the perfect environment.
Some basic protocol and tips for commenting more critically:
- Use tact. Always. There is no room for abusive or needlessly harsh critique; this is likely to be counterproductive.
- You have brought along a poem you feel OK to be scrutinized, but check with yourself that you really aren’t ‘precious’ about it. This is very important: know that all critique is meant in the best interests of the poem, and never directed at the poet personally. On the Group I founded/admin, we say we ‘leave our egos at the door’.
- State your points as opinion, never fact. If it helps you to do this, use the term ‘in my opinion’ or even ‘in my humble opinion’ (IMO/IMHO).
- Opinion, but objective as possible in terms of the poem/poet at hand. In other words, the critique should not be any different whether the piece is written by an old friend or total stranger, and though a poem may not appeal taste-wise, stay open to merits it may have (such as original metaphor or clever wordplay).
- Be honest. If you see an area you feel is weak/could be improved on, call it. Similarly, pointing out the strengths of a poem is also constructive – but both with rationale. Perhaps put why you thought it didn’t work, or why it did.
- The ‘Sandwich Technique’ – I find this very useful. It is an excellent approach as it is both ordered and feels constructive/positive to those on the receiving end. It’s simple: start with what you thought worked/what you liked, move on to aspects you felt could be improved on, and finish with an encouraging comment that extrapolates the positives to encompass the poem as a whole.
I have onboard with me this week a talented poet and critiquer in Beth Winter, who runs her own crit group ‘Room for Improvement’ on the poetry site AllPoetry. She’ll be helping me visit you all with constructive feedback.
Let’s get started. Just click on the Mr Linky button below to share your poem, and to access the others already linked.
Ain’t no thang…
I have posted a poem, I wrote over a month ago. I like the poem, but I would love some honest feed back on how to improve it.
Pamela
Excellent introduction, Gay,; and Luke, thanks for being so meticulous with the instructive and helpful ground rules. They make the difference between constructive crit, and discouragement, I think.
This is a difficult thing for me with some poems, as they are a very personal. thing. Luke knows I can get my feathers ruffled very easily when that’s the last thing that’s intended. For those who may share similar fears, I think the answer might be to link a poem you have your own doubts about, especially at first, or one that you are not personally attached too closely or emotionally to. Sometimes an older poem or a casual write is a good place to start. That’s where I’m starting, anyway.
I also encourage everyone to comment and participate–it’s all about the writing.
Yes excellent advice HW. And this is a forum for us not just to receive constructive feedback but to give it as well – even just a little. We learn a great deal from beginning to look at others work more analytically.
excellent luke and gay – i’m really looking forward to this…Honest feedback is the greatest gift a peer can give… i whole-heartedly agree. i have learned most from the honest and constructive crit i got and even if it hurts sometimes (when a poem is very close and precious as you stated luke) still i’m thankful for people who look at my poems with a critical eye and help me improve and hone the craft
See you next week Gay ~ Already I am using the nonet form in my writing but still have much more to learn.
Luke, thank you for that. I have linked an old poem for your feedback. I am new to writing but I want to explore the dark side of writing stories, still along the lines of love and intimacy. So any feedback is helpful ~
Great. We’ll try and get to everyone – meanwhile take a wander and offer some comments. If you don’t yet feel you can give any crit, comments of the normal variety are OK
Hi Beth and Luke ~ Thanks so much for your comments and suggestions.
I really appreciate it. Thanks for dropping by ~
A collaborative learning environment is a very rewarding place to hone our craft as poets. Without opinion, feedback and critique we write in a vacuum and I for one have never learnt anything from housework. This will be a huge asset to the blogosphere. Well done to all of you who have worked so hard to make this happen.
I have often read works that I feel would be improved by a slight shift of words, using less or more, but I feel I lack the vocabulary to present this to an author without sounding a fool, or worse yet, offending them or their wonderful creation. I am hungry to grow as a poet, and feel that we all will growth with Luke and Gay and their selfless offering of time and knowledge. I don’t just want to write better, I want to be able to help others to write better.
It’s so good to have opportunity for critique. I loved the intros by Gay and Luke and the valuable information on how to be effective at giving and receiving critique. I wrote the poem recently and reposting it for a critical eye. It has never been edited by myself or anyone else….one of those hurry up and do it things. Have at it!
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Hi, I have posted a third version of a poem I have already posted back in April and early June using different forms. I write on the basis that all my scribbles & diversions poems are work-in-progress that one day will be moved to my ‘showcase’ poetry blog – when I’ve set one up and have poems ready to move!
Really welcome this on-line workshop approach, which fits into my working world more then actually having to find and attend a real one.
great John, nice to see you here. I think we can all learn from each other
Thank you to Gay and Luke, and your guest Beth. I linked to an experimental work which if you’re interested when you visit has information from me in the first comment. I am going around to everyone twice so that the work has time to sink in. I would like to note that we are having thunderstorms that keep knocking out my power. If I have not posted your comment or yet commented on your work it may simply be that my internet is down again. I’m excited to get started. A huge thank you to all the participants!
thanks! Nice to see you
i linked up as well but won’t be able to visit others as i’m about to leave for a holiday and be offline for most of the time until august 2nd..
i think it may need some time before people will feel comfortable to offer crit as (i can only speak for me) but i felt very insecure about criticizing other people’s work. i learned a lot from luke and julie on luke’s crit group just by reading their feedback on other people’s works. this may be a good idea as well – read what luke, gay and beth write and get a feeling how constructive crit works. for me this was very helpful
Apologize here, because I have no knowledge of meter, rhythm, rhyme (except the obvious!) nor form. I just enjoy DOING it. But coming here to learn, I put myself in your collective hands (but only on Thursdays and Fridays, right?
Thank you all for being here!
PEACE!
Steve E (steveroni)
excellent start Luke, and Gay , i look forward to seeing you next week. how else do you get better than where you are. none of us has arrived. i have a few friends i ask for crit on a regular basis. for all her modesty above, claudia and i have crit each others work through email for months now. this is good stuff, take advantage of it.
linked one from earlier this week
Gay and Luke: I’m looking forward to learning from both of you. Luke: your guidelines for constructive criticism are outstanding. This post should be used as a constant reference point.
Thanks Mark
I’m looking forward to learning a lot from you guys. As Claudia said, it is actually quite nerve racking critiquing another’s poem, as we are all aware of the effort involved. However, having honest feedback is how we learn. Thanks for continuing this tradition..I’m enjoying the new site very much. 🙂
Do comment but only go as far as you feel comfortable. We are easing into it this week. If you feel you can’t ‘critique’, comment the way you are used to 🙂
Hi Gay, Hi Luke & Beth,
I posted an older one, a Free Verse, which is more of a rant I guess about something that had been in the news. I’m not so great at Free Verse, especially line breaks and punctuation, and of course that phantom cliché that likes to rear it’s ugly head in my writing! I Appreciate any thoughts or ideas on what works or might improve this.
Thanks, Ginny
nice to see you Ginny
Julie left me some awesome tips on the piece I posted…from the parking lot at walmart I’m sending out a super big thank you…and hubby thinks I’m crazy! Thanks again 🙂
hi, everyone! i’m VERY excited about this feature here at the pub ~ especially being guided by two such amazing poets as yourselves Gay and Luke. thank you. i will be referring back to this post when i learn enough to be able to critique someone. right now i have trouble sometimes even giving an honest compliment because i know i like the poem, but i don’t know how to describe it. i think Claudia’s idea of reading the critiques of others will be a learning experience, too.
i linked a poem from earlier this month that i really was not happy with beyond the first stanza. i am finding myself drawn more to free verse but have much to learn about line breaks and ….well, just about everything. {smile} i’m not at all attached to this one, so please feel free to give whatever critique you can. i appreciate it! ♥ dani
I’ve read all the other submissions, commenting only a time or two. I also read all the comments and crits on the other pieces and learned much. As time goes by, I will be more interactive. I need to test the depth and practice my strokes before diving in!
Do as much or as little as you feel comfortable with, Kim. Easy does it to start
This is way cool. I loved the crit sessions in Jack Myer’s poetry workshop at Southern Methodist University — a quarter century ago. (Not sure if anyone here knew Jack or have read his poetry.) It’s been a long time! I’ve posted a poem that I think is “ok”, and I’m (hopefully) not too “precious” about it. 🙂
Superb introduction by Gay and Luke. Claudia — sorry that you’ll be gone for the next couple of weeks. Enjoy your holiday! By the way, my thesis adviser in graduate school was a German-born poet and pianist. I wish that I had done better in my German class — unfortunately I never learned to read poetry (or really much of anything) in German, much to my regret.
Cheers everyone, and happy critiquing!
Cheers!
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Hello everyone
I posted an older poem from March. I appreciate this forum, where I can learn and hopefully improve. This coming from a poetess that learned by ear with no formal education…I just always found myself writing almost every day, especially while grieving losses.
ஆ
thanks for linking Helena
I SO love this idea and am eagerly awaiting a response AND taking a look at all the poems submitted and reading the comments. What an awesome learning experience and a great incentive to use OSP archives. (although I didn’t have time to do that this week)
Thank you Beth and Luke for your generous offer to critique our poetry. I look forward to learning more from you both. I consider myself a “newbie” at writing and welcome your help.
Gayle
I like the idea of a crit forum but I must say in all honesty that I am not ready for it. Hopefully my mindset ,and deeply ingrained need for approval, will change as I would benefit from some good advice.
Rene
Rene,
I understand how you feel. I felt that way as recent as a few months ago. My heart pounded with anxiety the first time I posted one of my poems in a formal critique group for feedback. And I’ll be honest, it was hard to swallow the feedback at first. But, then I posted a second one and it was a little easier. With the third one – even easier. By the fourth one I was running the groups saying, “I’m stuck – help me! What should I do? or How can I make this one even better?” 🙂
Take your time. We will be here when you are ready…
Most excellent; I’ve been hoping for something along these lines on a poetry site. Thank you so much for raising the bar, so to speak! Your guidelines are a wonderful reminder on how to offer a helpful critique, not a hurtful one.
The poem I posted has been in hiding for the last week on my blog. I didn’t have the heart to trash it. Any input would be lovely. I’ve seen you and Gay in action on forms, both are fabulous at critique.
Best & Many Thanks ~
I admire the work you’re doing here. Currently, I am begging for more time, but I will be following along on the sidelines. The advice on giving advice is fantastic.
Thanks Gay And Beth, I really appreciate this. For the fact the reason i joined Onestop and other poets communities this year was get feedback but somehow i havent felt mush satisfied as everyone liked it , even when i though it was crap !!
Or may be because feel the need of strong critique for one’s pieces is very important if we wish to make it a masterpiece 🙂 As they say gold only shines brighter in flames
So i post my last open link night poem only for a strong and direct yest constructive feedback from you Beth and Gay and from fellow poets.
Guess I’d best get some sleep before I do my reading.
Hi! Brian, Claudia, Gay, Luke Prater and d’Verse staff…
I just dropped by to say…Hi! and to say what a very interesting and very informative discussion for this [non-poet] to read when it comes to that very delicate
balance Of “critiquing” and “criticizing” a fellow poet writings.
Thanks, for sharing!
deedee 😉
hi, i am getting to know who is who because i only knew brian before dVerse. i am just getting to know claudia and what an outstanding poet she is. i’ve met gay and she is so lovely and a comfortable teacher. i so look forward to learn from gay. luke, i’ve visited your poetry on pink and could not leave a comment. and i am getting to know how polite and caring you are from the critique guidelines. i am off to visit beth. and to read and learn from the comments on the links. i don’t have any poem of my own yet up for critique. this is because my proses are only taking forms. hey, i don’t even know when a prose becomes a poem and when a poem becomes a poetry and when i can call myself a poet!:)
I’ve browsed a few of the poems offered here and the responses. This truly looks to be a fabulous place to aid in our talents, trying to see our work through the reader’s eyes, experiencing what they feel or don’t in response to a piece. I truly look forward to any and all input from everyone…. help! Smiles.
I am loving the response to this, Luke and Gay. Thank you so much for the detailed, supportive, and non-judgement atmosphere you have obviously created for everyone here. I am so excited to see it because I know how helpful the input I have recieved from crit groups has been for me (although, I don’t take advantage of them as much as I would like due to my impatience and lack of time.)
I am glad to see the guidelines for providing constructive criticism included here and also the fore-warnings on what to expect when one asks for constructive feedback….IMO the whole “check your ego at the door” idea is paramount to a positive experience with an exercise like this and I hope it is just that for everyone – a positive experience.
Finally, how cool is it to get this type of education, practice, and feedback for FREE?! Of course, I am don’t want to take without giving back so I will be around in the morning to visit those who have linked up. Sometimes I will peek in on the crit groups to learn from the feedback other poems recieve without even posting one of my own. And while I can’t comment specifically on form and meter at this point, I often let others know if the poem stirred specific emotions up for me or not, which is one of the most important aspects of writing poetry IMHO 😉
Thanks again,
Sheila
Hi everyone .. really looking forward to having some fresh eyes look at the poem I have linked… thansk for your honest opinions…
I inadvertently linked 2 poems – I’m interested in crit on Darcy’s Wet Shirt this time – the second link. Thanks 🙂
Thank you Luke and Gay for the great introduction. I posted the very first poem that I wrote. I haven’t touched it in a year since I first wrote it. I think that the crit is a great idea. To be fair, I’m going to read three different poets poems weekly and “critique” them. That’s all the quality time that I have to spend on poems unfortunately. For all you poets out there, your poetry is undoubtably fantastic. I can’t wait to read on!
Um after reading several poems and having no idea on how to “critique” a poem that is quite obviously something better than I would write, I have come to the conclusion that it is Alot harder than it looks. Would it be possible for you to elaborate on what a Critiquer is looking for in a poem? Maybe a review on common patterns in poems or things that shouldn’t be present in a poem? For someone who is not a professional poet or those who need a refresher this would be invaluable. Thank you 🙂
Luke, thanks so much for the excellent critique of my “Reply to Neruda”. I feel that the poem is much better now. Check out the new version if you get a chance; I’ve also posted a comment explaining why I kept one of the word choices:
http://anointedruins.wordpress.com/2011/06/12/in-reply-to-a-poem-by-neruda/#comment-61
I’ve just made an additional edit to the poem and the comment. 🙂
Fantastic guys! I have to be honest…I’ve been reading more crits than poetry as I stalk the comment sections of the blogs. What a wonderful treat it was to have such valuable feedback provided for the piece I linked up! Hoping I’ll be able to help you all like that someday! For now, I’ll take them as they are, flawed or not…perfect in my eyes 🙂 I’m now going to flaunt some of my new vocabulary round the office…see if I can impress anyone! lol Thanks again 🙂
Great idea but a bit scary as well! Please be gentle-it’s my first time! 😉
Thanks for linking lolamouse
I’m new here, Beth pointed me here and so I decided to check it out. This is a really cool idea, looking forward to it. I only have one poem on my blog right now, so you get that one, lol… 🙂
That’s cool, you only need one! Welcome here. There are three link-up events per week at d’Verse -this (which alternates with Form class), a photo/art poetry prompt which opens Saturday, and the big Open Link Night (not to be missed!) where you can link up anything you want, old or new. This has a lot of participants. It opens Tuesday 3pm Eastern Time
Oh, I am so excited to have found this wonderful new community, just as I am re-entering the writing world. 🙂 I’ve linked an older poem of mine that I think could use just a little more work… but I haven’t figured out on my own what it needs yet. Looking forward to participating, though I’m new to critiquing as well!
thank you everone who has stopped by . your comments have been helpful. I appreciate it. I have edited my poem and now have a “before and after” for the poem on my post.
oops. meant to write above commet as isabel bush (not gypsyseabird) anyway, have a great weekend everyone.
Just figured out that my first link was not working so I have reposted the piece I was hoping to include here. Sorry about that!
I really appreciate the feedback on my poem Twin Flames. A lot of time and thought went into it clearly. I really learned a lot from it. . I will incorporate the things I learned in my future work. I would like to ask for your thoughts/feedback on rhythm/meter/flow of poetry. What reads well and is clean and concise on paper or screen doesn’t translate as well into performance. It loses some of the percussion. I want to learn to write pieces that work well for both. I would love to read more about this here.
That’s an interesting topic Theron; meter is a huge and complex area but I think we’ll probably cover it. Some stuff will always be better for performance and other stuff as written poetry though
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I’ve really enjoyed being part of this, it’s so great to be part of such a thriving community. Thanks to all of you who have provided this platform for us to widen our creative circle.