Welcome poets, I’m Anna Montgomery, and I’ll be your host today for Meeting the Bar. As promised in my last post I will be introducing you to some aspects of contemporary poetry throughout this series. This time we’ll focus on the postmodern view that the high/low cultural distinction is fallacious. To explore this we’ll investigate the work of some of the New York Poets. ‘The New York School of poetry began around 1960 in New York City and included poets such as John Ashbery, Barbara Guest, Kenneth Koch, and Frank O’Hara. Heavily influenced by surrealism and modernism, the poetry of the New York School was serious but also ironic, and incorporated an urban sensibility into much of the work. Abstract expressionist art was also a major influence, and the New York School poets had strong artistic and personal relationships with artists such as Jackson Pollock and Willem DeKooning.’
Avant-garde poetry risks obscurity and institutionalization in equal measure, finding a path forward between the two that will allow it to affect society is often a balancing act. The New York School has bordered on losing out to institutionalization as it is perhaps the most academic of the contemporary movements. Yet it effectively calls attention to postmodern concerns through vehicles like the incorporation of high and low art/cultural allusions. Obviously if the distinction between the two had been obliterated by the movement we wouldn’t recognize the divergence, we’d have to look back to a time where the lines were drawn clearly, with class and social status reinforcing the divide. Perhaps to a time of aristocracy where the court composer’s masterpiece was considered much more highly valued than a folk song passed through the generations with often ambiguous or anonymous origins.
However, we can easily see examples of this divide in our current culture by looking at popular versus high culture. Pop culture values the common place, the easily understood whereas high culture upholds the rare, the transcendent, or esoteric. Most of us experience attraction to both kinds of art and many postmodern poets seek to blur or obliterate the boundaries by incorporating both into one poem or work. Here are some excerpts to help illustrate the point – they all address the concept more or less subtly:
Excerpt from Daffy Duck in Hollywood by John Ashbery
The pattern that may carry the sense, but
Stays hidden in the mysteries of pagination.
Not what we see but how we see it matters; all’s
Alike, the same, and we greet him who announces
The change as we would greet the change itself.
All life is but a figment; conversely, the tiny
Tome that slips from your hand is not perhaps the
Missing link in this invisible picnic whose leverage
Shrouds our sense of it. Therefore bivouac we
On this great, blond highway, unimpeded by
Veiled scruples, worn conundrums. Morning is
Impermanent. Grab sex things, swing up
Over the horizon like a boy
The rest of the poem can be found here along with a reading by the author: http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/16190
Excerpt from Personism: A Manifesto by Frank O’Hara
Personism has nothing to do with philosophy, it’s all art. It does not have to do with personality or intimacy, far from it! But to give you a vague idea, one of its minimal aspects is to address itself to one person (other than the poet himself), thus evoking overtones of love without destroying love’s life-giving vulgarity, and sustaining the poet’s feelings towards the poem while preventing love from distracting him into feeling about the person. That’s part of Personism. It was founded by me after lunch with LeRoi Jones on August 27, 1959, a day in which I was in love with someone (not Roi, by the way, a blond). I went back to work and wrote a poem for this person. While I was writing it I was realizing that if I wanted to I could use the telephone instead of writing the poem, and so Personism was born. It’s a very exciting movement which will undoubtedly have lots of adherents. It puts the poem squarely between the poet and the person, Lucky Pierre style, and the poem is correspondingly gratified. The poem is at last between two persons instead of two pages. In all modesty, I confess that it may be the death of literature as we know it. While I have certain regrets, I am still glad I got there before Alain Robbe-Grillet did. Poetry being quicker and surer than prose, it is only just that poetry finish literature off.
More can be found here: http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/20421 and for his poems: http://www.poets.org/poet.php/prmPID/164.
Excerpt from Seasons on Earth (a book length poem) by Kenneth Koch
The Waste Land gave the time’s most accurate data,
It seemed, and Eliot was the Great Dictator
Of literature. One hardly dared to wink
Or fool around in any way in poems,
And critics poured out awful jereboams
To irony, ambiguity, and tension –
And other things I do not wish to mention.
For a short poem of Kenneth Koch I recommend One Train May Hide Another: http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15592 where you’ll also find a recording.
Gilda’s Demon Core by Anna Montgomery
23 nuclear tests to end all wars, you see,
There’s never been a woman like Gilda,
The first plutonium-cored, pin-up girl,
1946 femme fatal bombshell (she’s already killed twice!)
Stars in B-29 Superfortress, Dave’s (Wet) Dream
Her aim point Nevada, that focal point of sin
Painted whorific red, sex-toy fun for the bombardier,
Amidst 3 obsolete U.S. battleships (well hung),
2 aircraft carriers (top guns), 2 cruisers (playboys),
11 destroyers (bad boys), 8 submarines (spooks),
And 3 German and Japanese ships (losers)
She laps up the Able Target Array carnage
Gives atmospheric nuclear fallout head,
Spewing an ocean of emotional wounds
Special Delivery propaganda porno flick:
‘Air power is peace power!’ hard on baby
Film noir fireball glory for a superheated Cold War
Operations Crossroads testing at Bikini Atoll
Depravity reaches the Atomic Ark tasting her full fury
Naval uniforms specially made, the animals dress the parts
She blasts goat #113 after tethering him to a gun turret
While swimmy little piggy #311 comes home sterile
167 native islander witnesses, however, cannot
Her encore will be performed by stunt double Bravo,
Another 15 megaton super dirty girl
‘Men fall in love with Gilda but wake up with me.’
Rita Hayworth, on her five failed marriages
Now for the fun and challenge: write a poem that incorporates ‘high’ and ‘low’ art and culture. For this I recommend using sources you’re attracted to, whether an iconic figure, a favorite movie, a long cherished piece of classical music, a cartoon character, a television commercial, a painting, or music video. Get creative and find ways to connect the dots between the two types of culture or enjoy crafting a mélange. You could deconstruct a cultural phenomenon or subculture, mix genres, but above all have some fun experimenting. Remember I am a fellow poet traveler not an arbiter of taste, pusher of ideologies, or critic so there is no right or wrong response to the prompt as long as you attempt to address the theme.
Notes: In my first Meeting the Bar Postmodern: Prose article I list additional references for those of you that would like to find out more about the subjects we’re exploring. Those references can be found at the end of the first post here: https://dversepoets.com/2012/10/04/meeting-the-bar-postmodern-prose/.
To participate:
• Write your poem and post it on your blog or website.
• Copy the direct link to the URL and paste it, along with your name, in the Mr. Linky at the bottom of this post.
• Leave feedback on this article to help me decide what’s working and what can be improved upon for future Meeting the Bar prompts.
• Participate in community building, a primary principle here at the pub, by engaging the work of others, reading and commenting. One of the best ways to become a better poet is to read and reflect on the work of your peers. Please provide positive, constructive feedback and appreciation. It’s how we show respect for one another at the pub.
• Share your work and that of others on your social networks. Encourage other poets to join us here at the pub.
brian miller said:
ha ok this was fun…cant say i understood it all…but it seems to take a little crazy and mix in some fun….smiles…some interesting examples as well….
Anna Montgomery said:
Who says learning and experimenting can’t be fun :)!
tashtoo said:
Happy Thursday! Anna…fascinating stuff. I’ve got a full evening ahead but am going to try to do this…so awesome to have you back at the mic!
Anna Montgomery said:
Thanks Tash, I look forward to seeing what you come up with :)!
claudia said:
anna…you had me stretch my brain with this until it hurt…ha..tried my hands on it…not sure though if i really understood what i was doing…so..smiles…happy thursday everyone…will be back in the evening to read and comment..
Anna Montgomery said:
Oh, knowing what you’re doing is overrated :)! Glad you took it on and so well.
Daydreamertoo said:
I’m laughing here…. I attempted to address the theme, what I understood of it..and I guess trying to be witty, I could say, I was high and my dog was low…haha. I tried.
Great prompt Anna.
Anna Montgomery said:
Haha, nice one! I’ll be by to read in a flash :).
Snakypoet (Rosemary Nissen-Wade) said:
Terrific article, Anna; most instructive — and I LOVE your own poem. Friday (as it is here now) is always a very busy day for me so I doubt I’ll be addressing it before the time expires, but I’m stil very grateful to have learned more about this particular poetics.
Anna Montgomery said:
Why thank you very much Rosemary. If you do get a chance I’d love to see what you come up with :).
Glenn Buttkus said:
Wow, your poem as example is boffo bright, rife with cinematic pornographic geo-political double-speak, nuclear nightmares, damp panties, raw sex odors mingling with cadavers, atomic thunderheads blowing up Rita’s skirt, where emotion and ego trump our humanity; absolutely loved it.
I have always embraced steampunk Beat postmodern smoke and mirrors, so your prompts are bang on for my poetic mindsets.
Anna Montgomery said:
Well, I absolutely love your descriptive summary and compliment, I’m blushing :D. Thanks so much for joining in the fun today.
John (@bookdreamer) said:
Great poetry movement to cover. I came across it by actually reading a poet and his poems! I remember by Joe Brainard,which was an eye opener. I found a very useful prompt list on writing New York poetry in a blog called jacket two that was created for a creative speaking course. The link is on my blog.
Tonight’s poem has quotes from Thomas Jefferson , a rant on the USA election and a disappointing superman meeting! So lots of low and high culture!
Anna Montgomery said:
It was fantastic and that recipe was spot on! Wait, you mean you learn things from reading, clearly you’re not from the US :). http://jacket2.org/commentary/recipe-writing-new-york-school-poem
John (@bookdreamer) said:
Thanks. And glad you put the link up as was struggling on the ipad to do that! And sadly this is England so someone interested in ideas faces the legacy of Edmund Burke
Anna Montgomery said:
I’ll be heading to work for a little bit but will be back this afternoon. I’m really looking forward to the poetry the prompt will inspire, great work so far!
nico said:
I had a good time with this, Anna. Thanks!
brian miller said:
yes you did….darn bloodsuckers….smiles…cool approach you took as well…
Anna Montgomery said:
I like to hear that and look forward to reading it!
Susan L Daniels said:
Hahaha–I had fun toying with contrasts & a little bit of the absurd, but not quite sure I got it. Either way, had fun!
brian miller said:
if nothing else it was rather tasty…smiles…nah you did well…
Susan L Daniels said:
Brian, you are a prince among poets… Thanks 😉
brian miller said:
happy enough to be a pauper peddling poetry…smiles..
Anna Montgomery said:
Wonderful and great to see you :).
Susan L Daniels said:
Thanks, Anna! Great to see your too. Loved the prompt today.
brian miller said:
off to dinner…really enjoying the creatvity everyone is bringing tonite…whole lotta smiles to be going around…
Anna Montgomery said:
A lot of smiles is a very good thing, thanks for covering while I was at work. I’m back now and fired up!
Gary said:
Great prompt! I look forward to reading more. As a completely irrelevant aside, is anyone doing nanowrimo?
Anna Montgomery said:
Thanks Gary and for the great laugh (your comment at Chromapoesy).
brian miller said:
nope, not doing nano man…
Sabio Lantz said:
Educationally interesting — superbly written post. But these poems illustrate one of the things I find most repugnant amongst much modern poetry. They were painful for me to read — even bringing me to speed read them (and I can be more patient).
I’ll pass on writing this sort of thing. I see no hint of value in it for me. I’d need a much more gentle introduction with much shorter poems where I get what is going on to even budge my stubborn mind, perhaps.
Seems there are styles that please everyone. I am amazed anyone would really enjoy these. But then, I have food tastes that others detest too — I wonder if this is taste, mind styles or a matter of acquired appreciation. (or all three)
Anna Montgomery said:
Every poet needs to decide that for themselves and I respect your decision to refrain. Meeting the Bar is intended to give more of a challenge but not to alienate. Not all my upcoming posts will cover postmodernism so I hope you’ll consider others as they arise.
Sabio Lantz said:
Oh they are always superbly educational — and if anything, this intro taught me to stay clear of this stuff. Even if I don’t take to any postmodernism, the intros are deeply appreciated.
Kooser wrote:
Anna Montgomery said:
That can be valuable as we all have limited time and resources so finding what we are attracted to and what we aren’t is sometimes enough of a dip into a movement. I see Kooser’s point and yours, thank you for sharing them.
brian miller said:
only the arrogant see no value in all the flavors of writing…there is a fine line in having your opinion and slapping people in the face with it as well…notice how kooser says it…and then your own response ‘i am amazed anyone would enjoy these’…a little difference there…
brian miller said:
all that to say, having conversed with on email…i dont think you intend to some across as strong as you sound in the comments here or other peoples blogs…
Susan said:
I think I know what you are talking about though sometimes words obscure (grin). My poem was lurking near the surface (after about 30 revisions of slicing away and away) probably because I tried to start NaNoWriMo today and got only 760 words into it. Words! Can’t live without them.
Anna Montgomery said:
I don’t know why your comment didn’t pop up before – best of luck on NaNoWriMo :D!
Chaty Lorens said:
Great article, Anna, and a great movement to cover. I must say I was resistant to postmodernism some years ago. Now—it’s just part of what is. A lot of fun, that’s for sure. And hard work! So I’m up late again.
brian miller said:
smiles…when you wake up, email me yours…i will get a tech to look at my computer tomorrow as well…i just cant open your pdfs…
Anna Montgomery said:
Thanks Chaty, I’m so excited you decided to join us and I’m really looking forward to seeing what you came up with!
Grace said:
This was a challenge for me as I can’t really relate to abstract ideas for writing. I prefer real life examples so I really enjoyed that poem by Kenneth Koch, One train may lead to another.
I am still unsure if my writing fits the prompt but as always, these things are materials in our toolbox. Its up to us to shape, use or re-invent it to suit our writing style and voice. Thanks for the article and prompt Anna ~
Anna Montgomery said:
I do enjoy that poem so I’m glad you got something out of it. I actually used parts of it in my OLN poem this week. I agree they are materials in our toolbox and love your attitude toward shaping, you really put that well. Thanks so much for participating and commenting :)!
claudia said:
is this the place where they serve post-modern drinks today…? smiles…made it back and will be out on the trail in a few minutes…
Anna Montgomery said:
Claudia, so wonderful to see you! And you’re welcome to any drink you’d like, it’s the same familiar and welcoming pub, I didn’t do any redecorating :).
brian miller said:
caught mark and heading out myself….be back in a bit for some more fun…
ManicDdaily said:
Anna – it is a wonderful prompt, but I am really deeply tired right now, and I’ve made up my mind to do Nanowrimo this year in a more serious way than the past couple. I have always finished more or less but I have tried to combine blogging and the month novel challenge and just can’t do that combination right now. So, I’m going to take a little break – and it’s so interesting since deciding this, I’m just more tired than ever and cannot focus much on anything poetic! (Just beat.)
All that said – I thought it was a very interesting challenge – I read John the Bookdreamers and Claudia’s and Brian’s and liked much and your Gilda but can’t do more. Take much much care and thanks much. k.
Anna Montgomery said:
Nanowrimo, how exciting! All my best on making it through that challenge. I know we’ll all miss you during your break and look forward to your return. Get some rest and take good care :D.
Gay said:
Anna, sorry didn’t know if I could manage this but couldn’t resist the prompt. Not sure I met it – I took it my own direction. Felt like something new for me. You’ll have to let me know. It’s late here now, and I have events tomorrow, but will try to get time tomorrow afternoon to read and comment. Thanks.
Anna Montgomery said:
Gay, thanks so much for joining in. I’ll be by to read your something new very soon :D!
scotianightpoetry said:
Reblogged this on My Bewildered Brain.
Anna Montgomery said:
Thank you!
David King said:
Postmodernism keeps morphing into something else. Yours is the best explanation I have read in many a long year. Not sure I’ve done it justice, though.
Anna Montgomery said:
I’m sure you have. Thank you for your kind compliment.
kaykuala said:
Anna Ma’am,
I tried to make my posting to be as near to the prompt that you had suggested. I could only manage to adopt part of it, meaning just ‘high and low’ and that’s it! But I suppose one can be given that leeway! Thanks for hosting ( and the time and expertise you’ve readily accorded to all the comments )
Hank
brian miller said:
hank, i am glad that all went well with the surgery…and i hope continued healing goes well…
Anna Montgomery said:
I look forward to seeing your unique take on the prompt. I’ll add my voice to Brian’s in wishing your wife a speedy recovery :).
festivalking said:
Well I made an attempt Anna! A bit shoddy but hey, it was worth the shot 😀
.. Thanks for a great challenge 🙂
brian miller said:
smiles…hey the attempt is the important part….be over in a minute…
good morning poets! hope you have a wonderful day…kinda col start here but hey…smiles.
Anna Montgomery said:
Good morning, that’s what trying new things is about :). I’m excited to see what you’ve done with the prompt.
Laurie Kolp said:
Anna- I always learn so much from your posts. I was tied up all day yesterday, so I’ll try to write something today. Thank you!
Anna Montgomery said:
Thanks Laurie, I’m so glad you joined us :).
Nilanjana Bose said:
A very interesting post indeed….though it took more than one reading to follow…have interpreted and addressed the theme in my own way. Thanks for a fascinating prompt! Will be back later to read.
Anna Montgomery said:
Thank you for the feedback, I’ll think about what I can do to make the next prompt more accessible. We’ll see you on the trail in a bit :).
Cressida de Nova said:
Thank you for another well researched and interesting post. We are so lucky to have a poet of your erudite intellect here. It is good to be challenged and I always enjoy writing your prompts.
Anna Montgomery said:
Thank you very much. I enjoy researching and reading further to prepare for them so it’s a joy to hear they are appreciated. Your response was superb and I forgot to say how much I enjoyed the word play in the title.
Martin Shone said:
This I found extremely hard, for a start I had to look up the word ‘fallacious’ so that put me on the back foot to begin with ha ha! and then came the poems, not for me at all… but I’ve written one, although I think it stinks 🙂
Anna Montgomery said:
I’m sorry to hear it was difficult for you. These poems were presented as idea generators, there are thousands of pieces that illustrate the theme, you may find something you enjoy among them. I’m at yours now, I’m sure it doesn’t stink :).
Anna Montgomery said:
I’m through 38: it’s been a wonderfully diverse spectrum of responses and I’ve enjoyed seeing the creativity it’s sparked. I’m heading out for a bit but will check back in a couple hours. Happy Friday all!
Anna Montgomery said:
After an e-mail exchange asking for clarification on the prompt I thought I might share this response. We aren’t looking at a form but an aspect of postmodern poetry so this time the aspect we’re examining is the high culture (think Bach or Van Gogh) versus low culture (think design, television, Keith Haring) divide. What poets of the New York School wanted to accomplish, among many other things, was a blurring or obliteration of this line. They attempted to use allusions to both types of culture, to begin to bridge the divide. So movies could be referenced alongside lines from Shakespeare in a work or a cartoon character or cultural icon could be shown alongside lines from famous arias. The goal was to question the value of culture and art and what, if anything, separates high from low. In the past this separation was reinforced by social status and wealth. If you were of upper class you might attend the opera and if you were lower class you might go to the theater. In today’s world the lines are often drawn around critical reception and popularity. For example we consider a Booker Prize winning book by A.S. Byatt to be literature and a bestselling JK Rowling book to be entertainment. One is high art and the other pop art. I hope this helps clarify a bit.
brian miller said:
smiles…thank anna…you did a great job with this….you made us stretch muscles we are not always comfortable stretching…and that comes with some soreness…at times…it is a good challenge and i think we all learned if we tried….have read all 40 and there was some really good verse that came out of this…
Anna Montgomery said:
Big smiles, I thought some really good verse came out of this too.
Joseph Harker said:
Not really thrilled with mine, but I suppose it’s better than nothing. Got it in under the wire, at least…!
Anna Montgomery said:
I’m reading it now and I have to say the inspiration for the poem is already quite intriguing! Thanks for joining us.
Dick Jones said:
Thanks, Anna, for a great prompt.
Anna Montgomery said:
You’re quite welcome, nice to meet you.