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finding your voice, late, losing your voice, what the heck is a voice?, whoops was i supposed to do that?
(I wish I had a good excuse for being late—but I just got out of a training class and realized I did not upload—-ooops!)
Friday, my family and I went out of town to see my father-in-law.
Saturday, we went for a hike around the South Holston River dam. You’ll get a better picture of it when you read my poem for tomorrow.
We found a place where the homeless and maybe a few party animals hang out, based on the scene we came upon. One of them had created a chair out of large slabs of rocks, stacked on a few smaller ones for stability.
Sitting there I wrote a couple poems as my kids and nephew tossed rocks in the water and my wife talked with her father. The poems I wrote were different than my usual poems—more peaceful, more of a flowing narrative.
This got me to thinking about the challenges we put out with form—and even when we as poets try out different ways of writing—more specifically how we maintain our own voice when we do these exercises.
I also find I start to take on elements of other poets when I read too much of their work back to back. Currently I am intrigued by the poets that Tao Lin has gathered at muumuu house, as it is so very different for me.
Gabriella posted a poem the other day as well on finding her voice as we ‘grapple with words.’
So let’s talk:
What is voice?
How is it different from style?
Can we change our voice?
How do we keep the voice when we change the style?
Have at it—what say you?
dVerse 
apologies for the late entry—better late than never? hopefully…
happy monday poets….
No worries ~ Happy Monday to you ~
ha. thanks grace….smiles.
Happy TUESDAY to you, LOL, Late to the party after Choich Woik over weekend, zounds, so busy!
This is a toughie, but I do agree that if I read too much of one poet, my voice tends to veer off in their direction. I don’t even think I have just one voice. I am Gemini, after all. I can’t wait to see everyone’s responses.
ha. i wonder if it is tied to heart…because i have several styles i like to play in….but the voice i often find myself using without a thought is that of compassion and the voice of those that have no voice…or of the injustices of the world….
Ah.. I was wondering if there was some daylight saving issues.. and the voice of our poems is not the same as our style I think… we try different styles, and the voice has to be the common denominator.
Then there is the choice of subject… is that part of the voice? In that case I think the voice varies more with subject than with style. For instance the voice of anger when I write about subjects that upsets me. It might be subdued, but it’s there.
I’m afraid of being personal, and rather move in metaphors or fiction. Is that part of the voice… I have actually thought a lot about this. Perhaps I’m trying to find a voice that’s mine… Very interesting questions Brian. But it just gives me more questions..
It’s late here now.. I have to go to bed… see you at the pub tomorrow.
ha. it is a good question that leads to other questions…i probably err on the side of over share at times when it comes to personal…i wonder too if anger is just the emotion behind the voice…does the voice not still stay consistent? see i am adding questions now…smiles….
or maybe anger is a costume the voice dons, an accent it puts on or role it plays to make a particular point?
oo i like the anger as a costume….cool thought ruth….
The subject matter may well be a part of our voice… I think so. I am just befuddled by the sheer size of questions that comes out with this discussion. 🙂
questions on questions…its interesting to think on it though…if we dont ask the questions are we really honing our craft?
We must keep on asking question, I think… that is how we come to realize new things and evolve in our lives.
truth.
To my mind voice goes beyond ‘style’ or ‘form’. My poetry weaves, or perhaps swerves, between long, short and medium line–sometimes all in the same poem. While I rarely if ever use a set schematic, I will often impose a number of lines per stanza for no other reason than it seems to help with the composition process–a way of keeping score. And rhyume is something that most often is internal that I do not work for but if it happens so much the better sometimes. But ‘Voice’ I think is to be found in a poets overall outlook of the world around them. I have many recurring themes in my work, therein I believe where my voice is. It must be viewed over a longer distance than just a single poem’s stylistics and even that can vary. A small sailing ship must many times change tack and course to reach its destination but in the longer view of its journey its zig-zag movements appear as a straight line of course toward home. >KB
great analogy in the ship sailing and course corrections…its visual and easy for me to relate to…smiles. i think you are onto something there with the overall worldview and lens we look at the world through…
Thank you Brian. I think younger, meaning experience wise, worry about their ‘voice’ and don’t realize that you don’t really find it. It finds you. >KB
I love this :It finds you ~
ok, so since i asked the question…i am younger is what i get out of this…hahaha
but very true on it finding you….
I guess, poetic voice is a personal thing while the style is an interpersonal one. We all have a unique poetic voice, which comes from our believes, ideas and experiences. We think things differently… we have our own ideas about things… we may find a sort of similarity as such with others but it is not completely the same.
Poetic style is more of something that we come to learn. As we write poetry, we pertain to doing certain particular things in our writings and that is how we adopt a style.
As we read the creations of other poets, we may get influenced by their poetic style which may further come out to reflect in our own poems.
Both of them are dynamic. We grow as persons and that certainly affects our voice as well as our style.
You may not agree… and there may be some confusion over here. But that is only something I have understood about it.
our believes, ideas and experiences. We think things differently…true, and those experiences shape the beliefs and attitudes…as well as those we hang out with tend to shape them as well…and i def like your acknowledgement that our voice may change…in some ways it may be honed…and others as our attitudes and beliefs change so may our voice…hmm…i have think on that one a bit more…smiles…
Brian, I always know if the poem is yours because of recurring motif and ways of seeing, no matter what form you play with or what prompt you choose–at least so far. Same with Sherry and Claudia and a few others. It’s not formula, it’s more personality.
Can the same be said of Me? I don’t know. I’m not aiming for a recognizable voice. Are you? I just keep doing what I do, and do more of it if I like it. Perhaps my sonnets sound like my free verse and vise versa? The only time I really try to alter or set voice is when I am writing a first person narrator who is different from me.
am i intentional with my voice…i dunno….in an earlier comment i said maybe it comes from the heart…also our worldview which for me is tied to the heart…which leads to that way of seeing…i dont know that i developed it as much as maybe in writing more and more honed it….
I also know when its your voice Brian ~ the way you weave your verses & format your words on the page, its like i am hearing you speak ~ Maybe it’s also I have been following you for some time that I now recognize your voice, prose or poetry ~
As for Susan, I find that your voice is a chameleon ~ Maybe its because you write in different styles & forms ~ Versatility is a good thing too so you are not typecast in one genre or kind of writing ~ 🙂
the typecasting is def something i wonder at…and what changing voice does….do we have to be true to it? can we really change our lens?
I believe we can change our lens without losing our voice ~ You can write horror or thriller or romance but there is something in the way you weave your verses that makes you you ~
true that…smiles.
i agree with Grace, it is the lens we change, not the voice… & no, i don’t think we have to be true to voice – but find me a true writer (or an authentic-living human being) who isn’t… {smiles}
That’s interesting, Grace. I think I go in waves from serious to light, using prompts I never would have thought of to get light when I have been on a rant for a long time. You have some motifs especially with touch and wine glasses–the intimate sensu-sexu-ality–that have similar voice in those poems. But you also step out of that easily.
I think Brian tends to use irony a lot.
Yes, the voice broadens in scope as it bends around new language, new/old forms, but I agree that our poetic voice, which often is fairly consistent & personal is tied to personality; extrovert, Type A, control freak, whiner, muckraker, introvert, samaritan, jokester, bully, asshole, saint, tree-hugger & loose cannon. One of the grandest things about running with the dVerse dogs is that you learn new poetic howls, and often while reaching beyond the old grasp, find you had some growth, and now your reach, your message, is wider, louder, clearer than before.
I always find your responses & comments just as poetic Glenn 🙂
ha i def use irony a lot…
I find that I consciously try and integrate different “voices” into works, sometimes into the same work. Not sure that works all the time. I find that the more I write, the more comfortable I am in shifting (tone). I don’t think it’s just a style thing. I’d like to be able to use a variety of voices/tones/shades to suit the immediate purpose. Interesting question, this.
I vote for heart influencing our voice, music any medium we align to in the moment!
Interesting to ponder-I think I have several, but maybe not. Nature shows up in probably all of my verse. Thanks Brian…sounds like a great outing by the way~
ah i am def a fan of nature…its where i retreat to…and it also makes me contemplative….smiles….it was a fun outing…i enjoy discovery…the last time i was at that dam was the first time i ever met my wifes parents….20 years ago? i used to carry around a picture in my wallet that i took of my wife that first time, til i took it into the pool on accident…smiles.
You pose such an interesting question, Brian. I think my “voice” changes when writing from intense emotion…like the emotion has a voice. It’s different than my having a prompt and my mind just whirling it about. Don’t you think where you are writing changes perspective/voice too? You were sitting in nature’s chair writing and it was different than your usual words. I haiku-ed my vision quest to and beyond Sedona and it had a different flavor. FWIW. Can’t wait to see what you wrote tomorrow.
i do think where you are writing can change your perspective a bit…in my reply to ella i said that nature often makes me more contemplative…also for me being in a crowd as i write def brings other influenced in…
emotion as well plays with voice, but i wonder if it changes it…
When I am doing form poetry, I find my voice slightly changing because of word choice (rhyme & meter) ~ Depending on the topic and situation, I think our voices change specially when we are expressing strong opinion or emotional response ~
And I think as poets or writers we should be free to experiment and change our voices ~ whether we come off as believable or authentic is another story ~
And I have to thank you (and the community) for indulging me to wear different hats (& masks) ~
Happy Monday to all ~
ha. yes authenticity i think would be challenged if we change it up..i think it is very noticeable when we do….for you there is always an underlying passion for me…i know years ago you wrote very passionate and intimate verse but even as you have branched out there is still that underneath…..
Interesting topic. I tend to associate voice with style, or style as an expression of voice. Certain poets come to mind, such as ee cummings, Victor Hugo, and Mario Benedetti. I wonder often if I have one, and if it can be something I consciously can tap into, or if it just happens. I think worldview def influences voice, as well as other poets I read (esp. cummins!). Sometimes I try hard to break out of my own mold, or whatever I perceive it to be, just to explore a new avenue or try to see things from another perspective. It’s hard to make that work in poetry, at least for me.
ha. i love cummings…his word play is amazing…and def influenced my early work….
i def try new things, i dont know that i have changed voice though, outside of some character pieces where i speak from their POV…
hey brian 🙂 yes I am maybe confusing voice with point of view. Those are very different things! Voice then must be influenced by a lot of things at the same time, more subtle, but at the same time a lot bigger than just POV.
maybe…definitely dont have definitive answers…thus why we have these conversations…somewhere in the midst of it all there is truth…
I think I am still learning, I know I have ‘a voice’ and I rarely use ‘form’. This is who I am, the beauty of transferring what I feel inside so that others on the outside can read. I don’t know what other way to describe it. I sometimes wish I could write as others do, but then I am perhaps misleading myself.. for I am who I am, as others are. Loved the questions and the responses, my input not very worthy or in depth I’m afraid. 🙂
i am def allergic to form quite often…smiles…when i do it i use it in spirit…i never wish i could write like others…i do wish certain phrases were mine…but if i wrote like them it would not be the same anyway because it would not be authentic…
this is true, we must remain ourselves or we will be another generic person – individuality first and foremost – I do love the way you write, but I won’t pinch some of your phrases 😉
smiles…oh i steal ideas all the time…if you do steal just make them better….smiles.
…ah, this is something i need to ponder more as i don’t think i have ever found my true voice in poetry (same as well as in style)… when i started blogging as windowlad i tend to patronize writing into forms most particularly in sonnet, haiku, tanka & tanaga…. now i celebrate poetry more in free verse & lately started conceptualizing my own poetry form/s… as to the voice, i was introduced to the classic voice first & i tend to adapt it in my early writings… then i learned about mary oliver & figured out we both use nature to express a learning and/or observation… i wish i have a distinct voice in poetry… something that can easily be identified or associated with my name… well, i have a long way to go before i can finally be confident to claim one voice that is true to me & my being… smiles….
i disagree kelvin…i think you have a voice for sure…it is delicate, but fierce when it needs…i could pick your verse out of a line up for sure…so no commiting crimes you hear….ha….
Kelvin, I agree with Brian. I think you have a VERY distinctive voice in your poetry.
Since poetry is Art, and is an art form, the goal for me is, as others have suggested, to infuse as many voice timbres, POVs, & emotions as possible within the poetics. I love being an actor, because each of us is/are a legion of personalities & perspectives, and one’s actual life may not give you the opportunity to explore the darker or lighter sides of what you perceive as your self. Actors can help create aspects of character, pulled from within, that come to life, come to the surface, when responding to a poetic prompt, or a theatrical challenge.
And what is really cool that poets can, should, transcend parameters, or create new ones, as all of history, all of the projected future, lies stripped to its essence, and we can be the projectile passing through visceral or symbolic firewalls, and pass off perceptions as vision, as wisdom.
i do think we can make that leap and crate others…
ha, and your comment is a poem itself…the bullet through the flesh
of our infantile wisdom…smiles.
In technical writing terms, voice is generally equated to “identity”, and is generally thought of as a culmination of all poetic/artistic elements and personality traits of the writer (more so in poetry) and or the narrative “I”.
In these terms, voice is diction and vernacular, style, subject matter, point of view, experience or lack of experience, political persuasions, age, gender and sexual orientation, education, emulation and impersonation of idols, environmental conditions, social class, geography, religion and philosophy, personal fears and phobias, momentary states of mind, persistent states of mind, everything ever read, heard, seen, smelt, felt or touched, so on and so forth. And not only all of that, but what the writer chooses to show, what they choose not to show, and the things that show up no matter what the writer thinks he/she is “choosing”. Etc.
For some writers, I think it is a matter of finding their identity, for others, expanding identity. For some, losing their identity for a time, others, shoe-horning into identities not their own, and yet others, the constant growth and evolution of identity. I don’t know, I’m making this shit up as I go.
There are probably dozens of good ways to find or hone a poetic voice, but I don’t know any of them. The method that works best for me (at least I think it works) is to stop paying attention to it altogether, just go, just do (a watched pot never boils, that’s the theorem I’m going with)
not a bad theorem at all…huge list there, like a burrito…i like your inclusion of what to show and what not to show…both are equally important…its a journey, identity is a huge part of it i believe…part of it is knowing yourself…and knowing where you draw the line as well…i do think for a time i hampered mine in places i would not go and it took a bit to overcome that…and perhaps at times i drown my own in going too far…
good to see you as well wood…
Thank you for this wonderful discussion/lesson on voice vs. style vs. POV…I can’t say that I have a “voice” in poetry, whether I’ll find one, or whether it will find me, but I can say that I have learned a great deal from this post; it’s one to think about and return to.
i think it will find you…i think mine grew just in writing and in the journey of writing…maybe it just matures a bit and becomes more prominent….
Whew, I am late to the party here. I think of poetic VOICE is the way the heart is when a person writes poetry. I also think a poetic VOICE may be quite similar to the ‘voice’ of a person in real life, the way he/she relates to the world….how their ‘heart’ works’
I think of STYLE as the way a person arranges his/her words. Some people have a very distinctive style of writing…..which is readily recognizable even if a person doesn’t have his/her name attached to the poem.
Often I think the two go hand in hand. Brian, for example, I think you have a very distinctive voice and style. I think Dave King did too. Glenn Butkus too. Grace as well. Some others as well do come to mind.
Then there is FORM too, which to me is yet a bit different. Actually the subject is definitely complex, and I am enjoying people’s ideas & trying to sort it all out. Thanks, Brian, for bringing it up!!
form is like a texture to me…i think we can get too caught up in and lose our voice trying to fit a form…imho
and i agree that voice usually shows the heart to me…the values a person portrays in their words…especially in absence of knowing someone IRL
EXACTLY (regarding voice).
As for the question you asked: Can a poet change their voice? I would say to that question: With great difficulty. I think voice comes from personality. I think it might be as hard to change voice as it would be to change from being introvert to extrovert. Voice is just there. (At least as I interpret it.) Even if a person writes in a different persona, the VOICE of the poet is most often the same ‘voice’ no matter what. (My opinion.)
i hear you…i think it is hard to really change your personality…for most people, smiles…
very cool discussion going on here….enjoyed reading through the conversation… i think personality always shines through in what we write… and even if we try different styles, there’s this certain way we walk, this certain angle we bow our head when we listen to someone… people who know me say they recognize me from afar by the way i move even if they don’t see my face from the distance… maybe it’s the same with our poetry…
I agree, Claudia. I do think who we are shines through our words clearly…even though we change form. I occasionally thought it might be interesting to open a NEW poetry blog under a different name; but I think anyone who really has read my poetry would recognize my ‘disguise’ immediately. LOL. (Same with many of the rest of us. We are in life and in poetry just who we are. Not easy to pretend we are someone else.)
smiles….as you know i thought the same…and you are right…perhaps you talked some sense into me…smiles…..
I am sorry I am such a latecomer to the discussion. All the more so as you mention one of my latest poems Brian. Thank you so much. It is very impressive to see it mentioned on the dVerse blog.
By voice I understand what we see and recognize as the poet’s unique way of expressing him/herself. The forms may vary or the style evolve, the voice remains the same. It is the distinctive quality of a person’s poetic self.
I think that for most people, the voice reflects who the person is. But I must admit that I do not know if this is true for everyone.
Thanks Brian for this most thought-provoking question!
ah the first part of wisdom is admitting we dont know…smiles….ah, your poem was another link in the chain of my thoughts this week, a distinctive quality of the person…yes i think i agree with that…
The older I get, the more my ‘voice’ is entrenched, yet I do think a change of subject matter and/or style can allow other voices to creep in. If I try deliberately to change voice, the result is usually a disaster.
So many of us work to prompts, yet the results are usually completely different. There must be something of our individuality there.
i do think that is one of the cool things with prompts….that we can all see things a bit different….ha, i have the same feeling if i was to try to change voice, but in different subject matters i think i can do fine…
The only thing we have to offer is our own unique voice – let the words speak for themselves. Rather, let the words sing for themselves.
The proof of the pudding….
Maybe we should all send in an unpublished poem, unsigned, to one independent person who uploads them and we all try to guess ?
I see you sitting on that rock chair, possibly rocking on its fulcrum, and then a big burly/hairy chap turns up and says “Get out of my chair”, waving a big stick 🙂
haha luckily he did not….smiles….
that might be a fun exercise…i have a feeling i might know…i may be wrong though.
good to see you aprille, i was thinking of you last night…and going to pop over and check on you…
Isn’t writing poetry always an attempt to find one’s voice? At least for me, that’s what it feel like…turning myself inside out to find my self.
turning oneself inside out to find self….nice…
Interesting discussion, Brian. On the course I was on last week we considered the matter of voice a little; it is really a huge topic. So what did I learn? Here’s some of it;
1) Voice consists of a whole variety of factors, not all of which come into play in the writing and/or reading of an individual poem, but are more clearly seen in a range of work by a single poet.
2) Diction is a central part of voice; the words a poet chooses, how (s)he speaks them, and how they are combined are all parts of that poet’s voice.
3) Form constraints can impact on a poet’s voice. Rhyming forms would be the most obvious example of this; some poets are natural rhymers, while others have to work really hard at rhyme. (Just as a matter of interest, some natural rhymers find it hard to not rhyme, even when rhyme is not a requirement of a given form, or in free verse … smiles.) However, even within the constraints of form, a poet’s voice will usually come across.
4) Voice is largely – although not entirely – independent of subject. This might seem surprising, but consider the variety of different poems we produce here in response to the Poetics prompts we put out. All of them are about the same thing, but each poet uses their own unique vocabulary in their own way. One of our tutors, Clare Pollard, said that it is a poet finding both their voice AND their subject that brings their poetry to life, lifting it from good to great.
5) I don’t think anyone has only one voice. Think about the different way to you speak with the different people in your life. Think about how you write work reports, essays, poems, notes for your partner etc. I doubt any of us uses the same voice for all of these … at least I hope not … smiles
There is a lot more that could be said, but I’ll stop there.
Tony, thank you for your excellent information. I think I understand voice better now. I still am wondering about your Point #5. I agree you wouldn’t write a work report in the same voice you would write a poem. Thus I agree that a person does not have only one voice.
However, Tony, do you think a poet has only one poetic voice? (I tend to think so)
Or can a poet have many poetic voices? Can you think of a poet you know of who seems to? (I can’t.)
I always appreciate the information you ‘bring to the table.’
Does a poet have more than one poetic voice? That’s a really interesting question, and I think the answer could well be ‘No’ … but don’t quote me on that … smiles. That said, a poet’s voice will develop and mature over time, as (s)he becomes more skilled in the craftof poetry, as her/his vocabulary expands through both reading and writing, and as greater life-experience comes to play on her/his writing.
One last thing – a voice isn’t something you should go looking for; just keep writing and your poetic voice will develop naturally. You will find rhythms and cadences that come to you without apparent effort; these are part of your voice, which you have developed over the course of your life. You can try to write against your voice, but – from what I’ve heard – it is really hard work, and the results are rarely satisfying.
it is a little surprising on the subject, but i think that can go back to the earlier conversation on emotion and how it is just another texture but the voice is still there…interesting thought on poets finding a subject….would you say that is the same in a way as voice? a subject we all return to? or is it simply of the poem
oh keep talking tony…smiles.
Subject is another huge … subject … smiles. Perhaps we could discuss it on another pub night. But, just so you know, I knonw what one of your subjects is … smiles. When you write about the people you work with, about people whose lives are tough and about your family, there is the spark of something more than the ordinary in the way you use your voice. If I were in direct conversation with you , there’d be an extra note of excitement in your voice, a sense that these are things you HAVE to say rather than merely wanting to.
Interesting discussion, Brian. I believe my voice is romantic, soft, optimistic, emotive, introspective, hopefully inspirational. I tend to write a lot about relationships, love, feelings. I love to weave nature images into my writing, to keep it visual. It’s perhaps because I love photography that I have often been told my words are like images. Enjoyed this topic. Thank you, Brian 🙂
Such an interesting subject that has generated a great discussion. I think I am an inexperienced poet still finding my voice but recognize that mine often comes from emotion, pain and the heart with a pinch of nature thrown in for seasoning. I think our voice is linked to our personality and character which can morph over time but there is something intrinsically us that remains constant throughout.
My voice is pitched differently according to age; melds words differently according to my former drug use; it also comes from other people, as though I am a channel. I swear, some of my best stuff has come from walking in another’s shoes… especially the homeless and victims of violence… even troops. I just listen to the voice that’s speaking through me and take dictation. Not a multiple personality thing, just a channeling gift, one I am humbled by every day. Amy