Last time we discussed the identity and perspective in poetry.
Answering the question on who you are in your poem.
Today I wanted to discuss a little bit about what we write about. Poetry is an excellent tool to describe something we sense with our senses. We paint our world with words. We paint our emotions.
But what do we tell?
Where are the stories? When reading poetry I’m overwhelmed with senses, but where’s the action?
It has not always been like this. Shakespeare wrote his plays in meter; Dante wrote about the descent into the netherworld in terza rima and Homer wrote his stories in poetry.
All very very long, novels in verse.
Modern storytelling is all about prose (albeit using poetic devices), and I feel that almost 90 percent of all poems are describing what you see and sense. Maybe one of the reasons for the decline in popularity of poetry is due to the fact that there are no stories in poems any longer.
What do you feel about poetic storytelling?
Why the chasm between prose and poetry?
What about fiction, is it OK to use your fantasy and still call it poetry?
This is not a prompt, just a discussion, but if you want to tell me a story in poetry we have an Open Link later this week where I would love to see narrative poetry.
Join me in the discussion and tell me your views.
dVerse 
Hello all… I’ve lit a fire, pull up a chair and tell me what you think about stories… I think we could have more… from Broadsheet ballads to Paradise lost… where are the stories today.
Hi Bjorn and All, when I think of stories in poetry these days, I think of song lyrics, which is poetry in its own way. The fire is nice and warm and so is the coffee. Maybe a touch of Bailey’s if you have some…
Coffee and Bailey’s coming up… yes some song lyrics are really story telling… especially some ballads. One of my favorite records is Nick Cave’s Murder Ballads, that work very much in the tradition of broadsheets… actually in the past many bards were poets, musicians and storytellers all at once.
Thank you for the tasty beverage. Broadsheets is a new term for me. Is that the same as sheet music or something else?
Broadsheets where those ballads that worked almost like the news…poetry retelling what had happened… with music and text.
@Bjorn @msjadeli Yes, indeed there in lies lots of stories, our Calypso singers (here in Trinidad and Tobago) past were real griots telling everything of village life then there was a shift to party rhythms, now the youngsters have uptempo-ed the music and actually returned to the stories as well. On a more international note. I am very drawn to two story tellers lately Miley Cyrus ‘Nothing Breaks Like a Heart’ And Enrique Iglesas ‘Subeme la radio’
I listened to Sting’s *Fields of Gold* recently. Songs like that are what I think of when I think of narrative poetry.
Sting has some good ones for sure. Have you heard his, “Soul Cages”?
I think of moon over bourbon street… one of the best vampire stories ever
“There’s a moon over Bourbon Street” oh yes…
That’s one of my faves as well Bjorn.
I haven’t, but I will look for it on YouTube this evening.
Frank, look at the lyrics first, without hearing the music…
Love fields of gold
It’s a beautiful song. I was listening to Celtic Woman’s version on Youtube.
I think one answer to the question of why poetry in not a popular art form any more is because its function has changed. Stories were told in rhyme, with a rhythm and people listened to be entertained. It was a group activity like going to the theatre. Our modern poetry is increasingly personal, ‘confessional’ and, let’s be honest, obscure, intentionally so. The purpose is no longer to tell a story that everyone can enjoy, it’s complete self indulgence, shouting, hey, look at me, bet you didn’t have such a strange abused life, and bet you don’t understand half of the images I’m trying to create in your head. There’s a word for it but I won’t use it here.
You have a point, and yes poetry is less about entertaining these days… but is there anything saying it should remain so… there are contemporary poets still writing stories, but maybe they are lost in a forest of selves.
I’ve been looking into magazines for my poetry and have yet to find one that publishes formal, traditional poetry. They don’t want it. Not that I only write formal poetry, but it has or had its place. It’s ‘old-fashioned’. You can’t pour out your soul in a ballad. I’ve had free verse published with no trouble, but the only formal poems have been in fantasy magazines that deal with mythological subjects.
Maybe formal poetry is easier to find a place for in a fiction magazine… storytelling in blank verse would be fun I think.
Maybe. The point is though that ‘serious’ literary magazines won’t touch sonnets for example with a ten foot pole.
*snorting with laughter, in delight* –
but if “confessional” poetry or story-telling is truly well done, it can transcend just the personal, and reach the universal — and this, in this mad for it, super-slurp gulp it all down world, is rather a lost art; and all great art is both a labour of hands, heart and mind
I agree. There’s no reason confessional can’t be universal, but to be universal it has to be understood by the common run of mortal, like using words most of us can understand in sentences with verbs and nouns in the right places. I don’ like this élitist turn that poetry has taken.
Maybe it’s not confessional that is what troubles you but the form itself… after all the best memoirs are often confessional… and it’s really storytelling.
Memoirs though by their nature have to be written by someone who is already ‘known’, the kind of person who has had an interesting life that we are already curious about. Nobody reads the memoirs of a nobody.
Oh, I do!!
Why? Just curious. I mean what would draw you to the memoirs of someone who had nothing happen to them? By nobody btw I don’t mean unknown because lots of ordinary people have exciting lives, I mean just boring.
I’m not disagreeing with you at all – it’s just the most common route to instant gratification out there – and the masses are lapping it up ~
Have you read the instagram poets? That is poetry for the masses if ever, without the poetry.
nope – I don’t do insta—- (I have to remain polite here) —- but I have to state one thing, to be clear – brevity, if well worded and played, can be amazing – but from what I have seen from the “instagram hit parade” makes me scratch my head in absolute befuddlement …. instant coffee is fine, for a taste, in a pinch, but please, it’s not the same as a brewed cup of coffee …. (I think we’re completely on the same page here)
Instant poetry is not even coffee… it’s the artificial sweetener in a pink sachet… it doesn’t even make you fat.
roflmao …. now that’s word perfect 😂
The number of times I’ve read the same poem about the twenty something girl who has been ‘broken’ but she will ‘survive’ because she is ‘strong’ and she won’t let herself be beaten up by her boyfriend again, well maybe once or twice, but we all get fooled by the white smile don’t we, and we all want to be nice to him, don’t we blah blah blah. What happened to feminism and standing up for yourself?
Maybe leaving the real world for sci fi or fantasy is the only way to write something new… after all it’s just a projection.
Funnily enough, it takes us back full circle to the edda and saga prose poems with the same characters and the same world view.
I have heard the same from fiction writers… the only way to be new is to go into the imagination of a future or a world of imagination…
They do say that Homer said it all. I think Homer left out quite a few emotions and view points, but that’s another story.
Homer is a goldmine to find a new story just by changing the perspective…
For instance writing a defense for the poor Cyclops …
That’s a good point.
sheer volume = creates a massive outpouring of the same for same;
– and this isn’t about the true idea of art-ing, or creativity – it’s a bit like thinking you’re a master photographer just because you have a digital camera ….
Yes, that’s it. The poem that says, I am broken because my boyfriend punched me in the face gets massive applause because so many can ‘relate’ to that. More boyfriends punch girls in the face, more girls swoon over poems that say, that happened to me too. (lies often, but who cares?) as if relatability = poetry.
and the two aren’t the same ….
I also agree about instant poetry. Sometimes, I use prompts to try out an idea that isn’t a complete poem , possibly instant poetry, and then go on to develop it further at a later time. It’s a germ, a seed, that grows over time. I post online (not on Instagram, though) to test the water, get some feedback, see what works well.
I started out writing poetry on twitter… when it was still only 140 characters
absolutely nothing wrong with trying things on for size — word lines/strings, as I fondly call them — to experiment, to play, to begin to tease things into some form — but you’re not trying to mass market yourself as the next greatest sensation based on 2 words “I am” … LOL … prompts are useful tools, as are other points of inspiration, i.e. music, quotes, paintings, drawings, etc. – nothing wrong with delving into whatever comes floating by that captures the imagination 🙂
Yes, I have seen those instagram “so called poetry”….all it does is rack up followers and likes. But nothing to do with form or rhythm or theme. I agree, its all personal or confessional like breaking up. Have read them, sadly and just shrug it off.
I have not read them, and it sounds like a scene to keep away from.
It’s targeting an audience, telling them what they already know and making them feel good about themselves because a poet says that happened to her too.
I agree with you on that, Jane. Some of the poetry workshops I’ve been on have been off-putting specifically because of that.
I have been lucky enough to have it more about subject than form…
It is a form of élitism. I think that the people who write the unfathomable poetry see themselves as intellectuals and the rest may as well be writing greetings cards for Hallmark.
except that it’s just the opposite — it’s a massive generation that feeds off slogans and breathes for the number of “followers and likes” — quantity over quality – for self-affirmation and attention.
I meant the ‘real’ poets, the ones with literary pretensions. The instagram generation are as you say fed a diet of publicity slogans, injunctions from gorgeousness gurus. They respond like sheep.
I totally understood you 🙂
🙂
Oh my yes Jane. Ambiguous poetry is so arrogant, and self aggrandizing. It’s, “hey, look at me, I just so clever!” It’s disengaging, inaccessible, and aloof . Speak to me poet, in clear language. Make your thoughts and concepts wonderful and mysterious, not your languaging and content.
I agree. I’ve looked at some literary magazines, and that’s exactly what the poems were like.
There’s complex writing that has to be thought about to get the full meaning from it, because there’s a lot in it, and there’s writing that is strewn with obstacles and nonsenses to throw the reader hors piste. As you say, so the poet can turn round and say, clever, isn’t it?
I agree. This magazine publishes traditional verse: https://thelyricmagazine.com/
I had a look at it. It’s sad that poetry like that has become a ghetto. No literary journal would publish poems like those.
thanks for hosting this pub talk Bjorn 🙂
it’s a bitterly, stupid cold day here, after a walloping of snow, so cozy fires and warm drinks are a wonderful recovery mode –
personally, I think if one comes from a more traditional perspective and strong writing base, as in “old-fashioned” prose and is widely read, across all genres (i.e. a voracious reader) then one has a more distinct advantage in writing solid poetry – specifically in being able to create stories within poems, as opposed to “slogan/greeting card word blurbs” –
but I suspect that it all depends on intention and purpose, as well as whether one has the inclination to hone a craft – and time, time and patience and practice – and in a world that is over-wrought with “flash” everything, where we are bombarded from all angles and sides, there seems to be less and less room for story-telling –
and honestly, I think many people are lazy – they don’t necessarily want to work to read and understand, to sit and savour, or let things just breathe, like one would, when uncorking a bottle of wine –
so stories? there are thousands upon millions, each waiting for the unique perspective, creativity and experiences that one can imprint – and share – but where are the ones willing to forge in the fire, and where are the ones willing to listen and participate, in exchange –
Maybe part of me wants this to change… at least part of me want poetry to be entertaining and fun, telling stories,… fairy tales and fantasy… science fiction poetry… and why not poetry novels… a great old tradition coming back.
But it could be that we no longer sit by the fireside and listen.
I think, perhaps, at the heart of the matter, what we’re seeking is true engagement – whether it’s truly light and fun, based on the fable type fantasy stories, or whether it’s something else – but it’s a bit like trying to reach someone, have a conversation, face to face, and the other person is constantly “plugged in” and won’t even look you in the eyes —-
I think it’s a crunch, a desperate need for true connection – meaningful; not necessarily all heavy and black hole-ish all of the time, but authentic communication that people are seeking …. it’s just all unfolding in the most “snake eating its own tail” kind of way, which is completely bizarre –
Oh yes, that is so true!
Bjorn, what you say above, about wanting poetry to be entertaining and fun, telling stories… maybe after the series you and the others have planned for the basics book, there could be one where the pubsters try to create such tales for the next book? Maybe even find illustrators to join in? Just an idea peeps….
That would be fun!
🙂 ❤
As a poet who favors blank verse and prose, I feel a kinship to the ancient oral traditions, and consider myself a storyteller just as much as being a poet; the two are inseparable. I often include dialogue. With my Homeric task of writing BLACKTHORNE, I’m involved with a narrative taking years to share. Stories seem to appear most often for me in the Haibun form.
I think the telling of stories is something I always come to expect from you Glenn… some of us are story tellers…
Glenn, you are an excellent storyteller and I enjoy reading the story you are telling.
Love your narratives, Glenn!
Are not many song lyrics not narrative poetry? Might the issue be that our talented storytelling poets have been drawn into the “big bucks” world of pop, rather than the lower reward of “jobbing” poets?
I think that you are right… song lyrics is often more “sound” than content… and then poetry is often limited to emotions… both lack the story I think…
Good evening Björn and dVerse poets everywhere! I agree with Jade about song lyrics being poetry that tells stories. I also agree with her about the Bailey’s coffee!
Much of what I tell in poetry and prose comes from personal experience or things I read in newspapers and on-line. I also like re-telling stories, from fairy stories to mythology, or the stories behind paintings, ekphrastic poetry.
I think that stories in poetry, unless we are writing ballads or epic poems, often tend to be brief moments, short stories within stories.
I don’t think that there is a chasm between prose and poetry these days. I can’t remember the title, but I seem to recall a recent novel being written in poetry, and I’ve noticed poets are writing more prose poetry than before.
I think a story can be as short as six words if it plays on our emotions and expectations…
but yes ballads and epic poetry is where we have true stories… I write flash fiction every week finding stories in pictures, and often I try to write it in poetic form…
sometimes more like a vignette, but nevertheless a beginning, a middle and an end.
and that’s completely reasonable Bjorn – because you craft the words;
and I just wanted to add: re: lyrics and songs – here’s the thing – lyrics can be immensely powerful – but the thing about about “straight up wording” – is that the words have to carry the entire weight, without additional elements, like melody or visuals; for me, personally, the true test of words is whether they stand alone, without any other “stuff” – on a clean white page – and if they can hold up to that kind of scrutiny –
no incidental notes, no ambient music, no bloody hashtags – then I think, okay – this is something –
(of course, I’m talking about an end product result here)
indeed… which is why so little song-lyrics is considered poetry… I just re-read Desolation Row by Bob Dylan, and that’s poetry for me… and a narrative of sorts (it’s said to be about a lynching)… and then when it’s sung you get it even more powerful….
Or take a theater play… it has a power in it’s text but you can add so much just by listening (adding the voice) and then another dimension by the scene and the costumes…
yes, a good or great foundation, the words – then, it can really soar and sing, when additional elements, like music, or as you so aptly noted, theatre, acting, staging etc. bring it to a new dimension — then it truly becomes something inspired – and that’s always something to be savoured — but the solid foundation has to be there –
Exactly! It wasn’t something to do at the time, coming out and saying that I thought Bob Dylan had no business being given the Nobel prize for Literature, but I’m saying it now. Two completely different art forms.
I like poems to tell versatile stories, as in ink blots — a catalyst for the imagination to turn itself on.
I think it’s the same with most good stories, leave some ends open for the reader to fill in… like finding the constellation among the stars… but I think the author should leave a little map as well…
I don’t know; I can imagine a novel out of one phrase. Maybe I’m more into brain pictures, the poem just being the button under the finger-press that starts off the 99-shot action.
There are authors who condense a world into a few pages… like Jorge Louis Borges… his books are so very brief and yet each word is essential
I guess the word, “story,” would need to be defined. Is it a tale with a beginning, middle and end? The answer to your question might be that many more women are writing poetry. And maybe, just maybe the stories they tell are different, and they tell their stories in a different ways? Perhaps they are defined as contemporary poets? Telling their story in their own way? I like to think “art and poetry,” are big enough for all of us. Even if we might be defined as different….different voices, different stories, told differently?
Most definitely … I agree, but I still think a story is something with beginning middle and end… maybe some dialogue… and I don’t mean women or me… as a matter of fact one of my favorite contemporary storytelling poets is Carol Ann Duffy…
Mine too, Bjorn!
I think many of her poems are like little stories… like the poems in “the world’s wife”… of course not really complete stories, but more like a twisted mirror, retelling the stories we know.
Bed time here… keep up the great discussion… and hope to see you with stories on Thursday
I gotta run and play in the extreme cold – so thanks for the chatting, – great to share ideas and thoughts –
I’ll pop back in later to see what people have to share re:story-telling …
everyone have a wonderful rest of their days/evenings/nights etc.
I agree with Jane, who blames the writers by saying much of modern poetry is unpopular because it has become intentionally obscure, self-indulged with the “poet” saying “bet you don’t understand half of the images here”
I disagree with wildchild47 who blames the readers by saying “I think many people are lazy – they don’t necessarily want to work to read and understand, to sit and savour, or let things just breathe, like one would, when uncorking a bottle of wine”.
‘Tis important to see these drastically different ways of viewing the issue.
we can absolutely disagree – Sabio –
but as someone who has been writing for close to 50 years, and can write in a diversity of styles, genres and voices – I can say that I’m absolutely “tired” of people who show up to read something I’ve written and then complain, saying, it’s “beyond” them and they don’t want to have to read something more than once to get the meaning;
if “see spot run” reading is someone’s cup of tea? fine – but I don’t do Hallmark. And if I have to spell out every single detail – trace an absolute line from A-Z – straight and narrow none the less – just to appease someone, because they think good poetry is one shot reading, in under 3 minutes? Not interested.
I don’t write TO an audience. I write. Because I’m a writer.
There are about five people who write exactly what I want to read, and you are one of them.
LOL – I’m totally cracking at “about” – and thank you — that’s a huge compliment 🙂 and your words always get my mind working, “madly off in new directions” – in the best of ways – as long as I can “find” you ….
Wildchild, being able to use accessible language and create engaging and important thoughts and concepts, that be can grasped and then pondered, by the reader, is in every way fine talent and meaningful art. If one wants to write ambiguously so that people are invested in pondering what they just read more than what you just said – that’s fine. But clarity is not equal to “see spot run”.
…. and given the limitations of working through comments – did I say “Clarity is equal to ‘see spot run’ “? –
I didn’t.
not anywhere in my comments.
I agree with you Pat, as writers we do have different readers… it takes “training” to read such thing… writing goes very accessible to extremely complex and layered. Some poets can only be understood if you understand the context of philosophy and mythology… I think it’s only by reading we can appreciate the difference… however I think my point with this post was more the lack of narrative in most poetry… I think a narrative can be extremely powerful in the same way as fiction if we use more “show, not tell” approach (and for sure I often forget myself behind a veil of obscure language) …
I do love a good discussion… always
My ideal poem – the one I want to write, the one I want to read – is one that can be understood on different levels. I want to read something that makes sense. I have to write something that makes sense. I’ve played with breaking down grammar, shattering sentence structure, and it just doesn’t work for me. Also, I read my poetry, so what I write has a life off the page as well, and I want my listeners to understand what I’m saying. But I want something that has a surface meaning to also have a deeper meaning, and to trigger an emotional response. And I repeat and repeat that for me poetry is a collaboration between the writer and the reader, and I want to leave space for that collaboration to happen.
I agree Bjorn – for as many styles of writing, there are equally as many sets and subsets of readers – whether it’s the poetic genre of fiction. And much like each writer or any creative artist, or hobbyist, it’s all a process and we all come to the table with different skill sets and levels of abilities.
My apologies to you for apparently wandering a bit off the track here – and to anyone else who may have taken offense to some of the comments. There is room enough for all thoughts and opinions.
As for your last idea- sometimes forgetting the narration for the language? Of course, it does happen, especially if one is fascinating by languages and how shaping them can create stories, whether in poetry or fiction, or in music etc. But then, sometimes, the language, the words, write their own story.
Have a wonderful day everyone.
Ha… agree… reminds me of Tolkien saying that his original purpose with Lord of the Rings was for a linguistic purpose
LOL!
Bjorn’s post stated “Maybe one of the reasons for the decline in popularity of poetry is due to the fact that there are no stories in poems any longer.” And I agree in the sense that many writer are just like wildchild47 (?pat) who writes, “I don’t write TO an audience. I write. Because I’m a writer.” This is the self-enamored style that I think Jane criticized. It looks like robkistner agrees too, and sarahsouthwest agrees. Laura seems to agree too. But many people love the stuff of wildchild47. I am not telling folks what they should write, I am conjecturing on why poetry is not popular — it is the stuffy and self-in-love poetry that probably turns most folks off and yet many folks (the trained, careful, experienced and brilliant) enjoy. We are all different. But there was a question of why poetry interest precious few people. At least when musicians write stuff that is vaguely impenetrable, they wrap it in a good tune folks can enjoy! Smile. It is important to understand our audiences — and at d’Verse there are many types. But as far as why Poetry is a big yawn to most folks, the answer seems clear. The “training” and years of reading to understand allusions and hints are not making poetry accessible. But then, maybe these folks love their private club.
I can understand both… to have a small dedicated set of listeners is very rewarding, but so is a crowd… we as poets just have to make a choice of what kind of audience we want… exactly like a musician or a painter.
indeed
I agree with Jane about bleeding heart poetry although much of the personal is not idiosyncratic but what we can all relate to – I rarely read the epic storytelling poems though Hiawatha is lovely to dip into for imagery & rhythm. Am also averse to rhyme because I’m no good at it! I guess that means my writings fall on the mid line between prose & poetry – I do not see a chasm between these 2 elements though their aims are quite different. War and Peace for example would not work in a few verses though Moby Dick might.
I remember writing something quite a while back for Franks prompt Prose Poetry
Perhaps we should do more of this more often.
Thanks for this thought provoker.
Maybe those old epic poems makes us think it has to be in form and/or rhyme to be narrative… actually there are a few cases of epic poetry in free verse… One example (in Swedish) is Aniara, which is a sci-fi epic poem about a spaceship lost…
Goodnight Bjorn and have fun in the extreme cold — dress warm! — wildchild. Very much enjoying the discussion here…
Late to the discussion this frigid night in Boston.
I must say, I’ve enjoyed writing what I sometimes call portrait poems….creating a character and telling her/his story…or seeing that person in one “happening.” I enjoy narrative poetry.
Anyone read Brown Girl Dreaming by Jacqueline Woodson? It was a National Book Award Finalist. Woodson has won many awards and this is basically her story of growing up in the 1960s and 1970s in both the North and the South. It’s free verse – many many poems that can be read separately as well.
I think the book was recently translated to Swedish, but I have not read it (yet)
This is quite a far ranging discussion, but I agree with Jane (I think) who made a point about instagram poetry, back there somewhere. It’s mostly what a friend of mine calls trite shite, bromides, wet handkerchiefs for the forehead. To get back to narrative poetry, most of what I wrote before I started blogging was waht could be called narrative poetry and some of it did get published, in Irish literary magazines mostly. There is a strong narrative tradition in Irish literature. I think the difficulty in writing narrative free verse is that it can become just chopped up prose, to be poetry there has to be music in the words, there has to be some sonic beauty, internal rhyme even, assonance, alliteration. An obvious point, maybe, but true, I think. Thanks Bjorn, for getting the discussion going!
One of my kids gave me a book of poetry by one of the instagram goddesses. Trite shite was how I described it to her—she thought I was being snotty. Glad I got the right technical term.
Irish literary journals are where I’ve had poetry published. They have what I call a much more inclusive notion of poetry than some of the others. They like lyrical, and they don’t insist that the poem be completely incomprehensible to be included.
Poetry here in Sweden is often much more focused on who has written it… than what and how … alas.
Often I think it must be the same as for electro-acoustic music. The people who say they enjoy it are implicitly saying, I understand it—do you? If you admit to not understanding some modern poetry, you’re admitting ignorance. Nobody likes to look like an idiot.
Here’s my take on some of the poetry on Instagram. They are short thoughts that do not take a lot of brain energy to read. They are targeted to the generation of people who grew up texting and playing video games. They want information quickly so they can move on to the next items that interest them. The problem I have with it, is it dilutes much of the emotion that should be associated with reading a poem.
For anyone dealing with short poems it’s actually possible to do it in very few words, but the less words the more energy it takes to write and the more energy it takes to read… sometimes we might also miss some of the deeper references that might be there. For the young generation it’s in pop-culture… whereas much of the 19 the century poetry is lost on us because of references to myths and news from that time….
I think there is a real broad-based neurological change happening in our information age: we are processing data in smaller and smaller pieces, which leads to only process in smaller chunks, which leads us to expect/demand/need smaller chunks of data.
Our attention span is getting shorter and shorter I think.
I really like the concept of telling stories in poetry. Those of us who enjoy Classic Country Music love the story telling ballads of many songs. Kris Kristopherson comes to mind with his song.. Sunday Morning Coming Down and Johnny Cash with The Long Black Veil. John Denver sang, Grandma’s Feather Bed. Tom Paxton wrote a wonderful Viet Nam story song called, Ramblin’ Boy! Even Elvis sang the story of a Chicago mother who lost her son to gun violence with the refrain… “and his mama cried!” Then there is Coleridge’s Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner. All wonderful stories.
Indeed… the ballad as a form is excellent tradition of story telling. I think that it was one way to spread news in the past… in for instance a genre called murder ballads. There is a great Nick Cave album called Murder Ballads, essentially telling terrible stories in songs.
I love telling stories in my poetry, creating scenes, populating it with someone(s) doing or saying something, an action of some kind, a dialog – for me, something needs to conclude, or resolve, or ask a question that requires thought, a reponse. I have written a few ethereal pieces, just to create some abstract feeling, but writing just for the sound of words, that don’t interconnect to create something someone can understand, or creating little visuals that don’t link together to go somewhere – seldom is comfortable for me to write. I LOVE the way words sound, but by and large, I want them to communicate a thought of some kind, or a recognizable visual image that relates to the the cohesive fabric of the poem. I do not like to read poetry that is ambiguous or “code like”, and I try not to write that type of poem. Tell me something poet, show me something, make me think about something in a tangible world – even if that world is fantasy, or scifi, or horror – make it accessible to me. Please poet, don’t make me have to guess what the you’re trying to say to me, I am not smart enough. So I think I am always creating poems in the framework of a story, or a scene from a story. I am pretty good at creating settings, atmosphere, visuals – and I really enjoy that. But in that, I am almost always moving through a scene, a setting, an atmosphere, toward a conclusion of some kind, or a moral, or a question for the reader. So in that way, I guess my the majority of my stuff is story like? My mind rambles, so not sure I made any sense here Bjorn, or if it relates to your topic. Not certain I ever make sense? If I embarrassed myself, sorry… 🙂
Wanted to include, as part of my pontification about story-like poems, that Gary Snyder is my very mostess, favoritest poet! A master story telling poet!
Thank you, very much along my lines of thinking… in my view most poetry omits things. It actually has to omit a lot of the background. I think we as poets always have to assume a common base of knowledge,,, which is non-existent. To me here is the biggest challenge in story telling in poetry… what we omit the reader has to fill in, and that changes with time, with geography and social group… Maybe that is why poetry has moved so far from the narrative into the lyric aspects….
But it’s great to know that there are those of us trying.
Late to the bar, and overtired, so I’ll keep it short. I feel as if I’m out of my depth here. I write poetry – story, confessional, social commentary , etc – as the muse guides me. It seems to me that all writing is influenced by a back story. Often when I read work here, I wonder about that story – the poetry peaks my curiosity.
I am an instagram user. Having taken up photography last year, I like to combine images with words (usually haiku) and this fits well with the instagram environment.
Not sure I’ve contributed anything, but did enjoy the conversations.
Crawling back into my hole now, lol.
I think it does make sense… the back story is often there, but it’s not so easy to understand what a reader knows and what he or she doesn’t…
True…
Years ago I read a fascinating thesis on Blondell, since lost to me, that posited that his wandering minstrel style was a precursor to what became a long trajectory to modern music. His style, from anecdotal evidence, is recorded as a popular folk style for the time (the Crusades and Richard the Lion Heart) all love songs as part of the courtier period. I note too the style of Psalms – particularly those found in the Jewish body of scripture (and therefore the Christian Bible also) – have several forms, all clearly spiritually focussed, some are lament, others story, others are salutations and praise. I guess my point is, that poetry has always been a varied genre, and continues in that way, it doesn’t stand still. You raise a great question which I’ve been pondering for some time in different ways, and my sense of it is at this point is a question – when is a poem not a story?
I love that last point… and it mirror a though of mine… I think there is always a story somewhere in a poem, though in many cases the story is a background which might have been well-known when it was written, but is now lost… and then the poem stand there naked and bare… the story lost and it describes an emotion without a cause…. don’t know if I made it clear or if was the same thoughts you had.
I think similar for sure, we meet in the middle 🙂 I often think the story is not always so obvious or is a puzzle too, like Haiku or sometimes the reader will never know.
It’s a fascinating thread to read. I like the way we’ve wandered into some pretty deep questions. Here are my thoughts, for what their worth:
Children’s books frequently are poems. Think of the Gruffalo, by Julia Donaldson – perfectly sustained rhyme and rhythm all the way through. I think she started out writing song lyrics, and she’s maintained that. I think part of the appeal is that there’s an element of predictability – the next word is going to rhyme with that word – and they are very easy to learn. My daughter and I used to be able to recite the Gruffalo word perfectly, and did so on walks together.
I did get thrown by one book, obviously written by a soft southerner, when I had to suddenly rhyme “parcel” and “castle”. I’m from the north of England originally, where our “a”s are flat…but that’s a whole other story.
In terms of poetry, I think there are a lot of stories out there – if a story is “this happened, then this, then this” – anything that progresses through time is a story. I’ve certainly written poems that could have been pieces of flash fiction, or short stories. They’ve been poems because I’ve wanted to linger on things that aren’t necessarily going to progress the plot, but might deepen the feeling. I’ve been interested that people assume poetry is “true”. I wrote a poem about my mother being visited by angels.It’s here, if you want to read it. https://fmmewritespoems.wordpress.com/2017/11/04/november-with-yeats-4/
I read it at an open mic night a year or so ago, and someone came up afterwards to talk about it, and obviously thought it was a true story. I felt quite guilty owning up to the fact that I’d made it up. If I’d read it as a story, she’d have known immediately that it was a piece of fiction.
Re-reading it now, I wonder if it is a story, or a poem, or what is it? It wouldn’t hold up as a piece of fiction, I don’t think. Not much happens. Or does it?
So, we get exposed to a lot of rhyme as children, but as adults most “serious” poetry is freeform. Rhyming poetry doesn’t have as much kudos. The places I see rhyming poetry are quite different. They tend to be lighter poems. Our local coffee shop sells a book written by a local, and the poems are very much along the lines of:
“A lovely place to sit and chat,
so come on in, take off your hat…”
But a lot of people like that kind of thing. I’m not selling a book of my poems in the local coffee shop, let’s face it, and she is.
I agree that rhyming has gone to something less important in modern poetry (except in slam or rap)… and that i grew up with rhyming too… often it makes it easier to memorize which is why it works so great with kids… I remember that I would have to guess that word from the rhyming…
That said I don’t clearly see a connection between rhymes ans narratives… I think a narrative could be told in almost any form, but for sure it’s assumed (today) that everything we put in poetry is a true account.
Maybe by placing it in a word of fantasy or sci-fi makes it easier for the reader to understand it’s not true.
Poetry seems to have become a confessional form – though even a confession, even the most apparently personal poem is curated.
Here’s a thought: Does it matter whether the reader accurately interprets a poem as fiction or nonfiction? The best novels (obviously fiction) are so realistic as to read like a biography. Some fans even get caught up in those stories and believe the characters exist outside the book. I would think it one of the highest compliments that someone would perceive a fictional poem to be real. That means you have captured the emotion of the story, and it has become real to you. In other words, you are writing about something you understand and can intelligently relate to others.
Regarding rhyme, I agree that it has largely fallen out of favor in today’s poetry societies. Perhaps this is due to the overabundance of silly and shallow rhyming poems. I’m not knocking the deliberately humorous ones, but the ones that lack the polish that comes from multiple revisions. I try to improve my rhyming skills because some folks have asked me to write more music, and the thought frightens me. Someday I will… But I also enjoy writing and reading unrhymed poems. At the same time, like so many others who have commented here, I get very little out of the “mysterious” poems that seem to need a secret decoder ring to decipher. Make the message plain, at least on one level. Then hide within its bosom a deeper meaning to be found by those who care to dig deeper. That, in my opinion, is what separates good poetry from outstanding poetry.
As for Björn’s original question, should poetry tell a story, I believe it should. Sometimes it’s only a snapshot, but other times an entire history could be told in poetic form, such as Beowulf. Would an epic poem be popular today? Probably not. Our attention spans are far too short. But that does not mean we should not try.
I think epic poetry will come back… but maybe more in the form of audio books… listening to poetry can make a return… (maybe it’s just my hope)
Good point! 🙂
Interesting post, interesting comment thread 🙂 Been awhile since I’ve stopped and done that here at dverse, glad to see the scene’s as lively and engaging – my own poetry’s still more searching for the loose word to clothe a slinky thought or shy emotion. Since I started matched words to pics I’ve taken or painted (2011 or so), that’s worked a little better for me; hasn’t much changed for me either though, lol 🙂
I think I need an edit button lol! Thanks ya’ll 🙂
Interesting that you mention paintings… if you look at old paintings it’s clear that there are many stories hidden in the details whereas modern painting is more about capturing an emotion. I think that modern painting is a very well suited to complement with a poem or a story… I applaud such initiatives and hope to see you around again linking up something.
Born, thanks! I biggest arty-fault is I spread myself around the arts too much – I like them all, but I’really like poetry and do hope to hang around a bit as able. And yeah, I’ve always felt pictures painted stories and words wove pictures. I’ve been playing lately with letting myself enjoy creating with pure color and form, ie abstract, then finding something – person or thing – that’ll not disrupt the initial abstract but with the inclusion, become (sorta) a story – usually very open to interpretation, but interpretable (sp) 🙂
Love this:
“searching for the loose word to clothe a slinky thought or shy emotion”
Shawna – thanks so much! I almost skitted away from “slinky thought” but decided it still covered my idea of a hard-to-hold thought 🙂
This is such a far-ranging, wonderful discussion. To Björn’s original point of narrative poetry, I agree that it seems out of favor with literary magazines. I do enjoy and often write poems that are little stories. Perhaps they are simplistic. I don’t know, and others can judge that, but I enjoy them. I also agree that such narrative poetry can be found in folk ballads and also in some modern day songs– for example, there’s a Judy Collins’ song about the night of a blizzard. And there are musicals with songs that are stories in themselves. I’ve also written flash fiction/CNF that overlaps with poetry.
As for the point about poetry being intentionally obscure, there have been a few poems I’ve read where I really did not understand what it was about, but I liked the sound of the language. In general though, if a poem is that obscure, I’m not a fan. And I do think much of it is self-indulgent, look how clever I am sort of stuff. I happened to hear part of an interview with poet Tracy K. Smith yesterday, and she talked about how some–perhaps most— poems can be read on different levels, and it’s not wrong. Someone–a student or someone unfamiliar with poetry–can read and admire the surface meaning of the poem, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but then someone else might understand the deeper meanings, symbols, metaphors, etc. I found this speech by her, if anyone is interested. And speaking of form poetry, she shares a pantoum here (not written by her). https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/tracy-k-smith-staying-human-poetry-in-the-age-of-technology/2018/05/29/890b6df2-629b-11e8-a768-ed043e33f1dc_story.html?utm_term=.aceab973c608
Can’t agree more
merril, i like what you say here, where you may enjoy the poem at any level you wish, just as one may with any art form. we so often talk about freedom of expression. what about freedom of appreciation?
I think of ballads or country music. I think our poems are our story, that’s why we write them. And if we write about someone else, even then, we can see ourselves in that story.
But there is always a choice if we want to tell the story or if we want it to fit into a story like a piece of a puzzle.
exactly, Mary. “we” are in the story, as there is no story without our creating it, and we can be wherever we wish in its creation, be it narrator, participant, or capturer of the inspiration to scribe it.
I’ve largely skimmed this discussion this morning as I’ve had my coffee, but I don’t think I saw mentioned – to all of us at large, what are our favorite pieces of narrative poetry? Goblin Market by Christina Rossetti is a perennial favorite of mine.
I have never read Goblin Market (shorter parts of it)… but I have read about it… maybe it would be a great thing that one could listen to.
I’m now tempted to record a reading of it for posting….
I found this… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOVT_4_peTI
I think literature is like fashion in the sense that it goes in circles. What is popular now becomes unpopular later, only to come back into fashion after. I believe the narration-poem style will come in trendy some day.
I’m sure it will, and some of the comments here indicates to me that there might be a market for that.
Yes, and that is probably because people are starting to look for something more innovative, different. That probably causes the cycle to go on forever.